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I didn't know where this should fit but hoping to start a new conversation about athletics at P5 schools.

Let me start off by stating I'm not recommending we move to to DII ...but I am asking a serious question about P5 schools. I've heard many times of the value of having a DI athletic program. I've also heard about supposed "studies" that claim being DI is financially smart because it attracts students to the university - free marketing from bowl games, for instance. The problem is I've never seen the actual study that proves this theory...or any study that confirms being DI has any impact on a P5 school. I believe the argument is complete BS and probably created by someone at the NCAA.

With VERY few exceptions (Gonzaga and, for a time, Butler), I can't identify any schools able to improve its financial position, either by generating actual net revenue or by somehow tying a strong football or basketball program to improved enrollment....and I would argue Gonzaga basketball only pays for itself and has had no impact on the school's enrollment. The idea that BG going to a nothing bowl game would impact enrollment, because we know it won't help the athletic department's bottom line, is utter nonsense.

Does anyone know of any study that can confirm or refute these claims.

This news article makes some reference to the points you were talking about: https://eaglenews.org/1070/news/fgcu-ad ... dness-run/. I decided to look up Florida Gulf Coast enrollment boost because I remember that being in the news when they made a deep tournament run. The article also references a few football game situations.

notkithughes wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:44 pm I didn't know where this should fit but hoping to start a new conversation about athletics at P5 schools.

Let me start off by stating I'm not recommending we move to to DII ...but I am asking a serious question about P5 schools....

I think you mean G5 schools. Or, more precisely (since you spoke of Butler and Gonzaga, and neither or G5), mid-majors.

The idea that BG going to a nothing bowl game would impact enrollment, because we know it won't help the athletic department's bottom line, is utter nonsense.

It sure beats getting clobbered on the basketball court by the likes of Southern Indiana and Queens, though.

Playing FBS football enhances Bowling Green's brand. The Falcons may never be a Big Ten school, but we can beat Big Ten schools, as we've shown over the years. This helps differentiate us from the Youngstown States, the Wright States and the Grand Valley States, for example.

Whether anyone can quantify with academic precision the effect this brand enhancement has on BGSU enrollment or the quality of BGSU applicants, I do not know. But the national television coverage Bowling Green football receives does have quantifiable value. We know advertisers will pay good money for spots that air during weeknight #MACtion. By extrapolation, the three-and-a-half hours ESPN2 devoted to Bowling Green's game against Western Michigan a few weeks back has value. So will the national television coverage we receive playing in a bowl game, even if the game is not a direct financial windfall for the athletic department.

I would also note that FBS is more financially lucrative than FCS would be. The MAC (and member schools) gets ESPN television revenue and revenue sharing from the FBS national championship that would not be available in FCS.

You are correct, Schad, G5. Thanks for the edit.

Thanks for the article, footballguy. That was an interesting case study. However, I'm not sure FGCU is an apples to apples comparison with Gonzaga or Butler, both of which are located is smallish towns. FGCU is located in a state that has seen huge population increases over the last 30 years and the enrollment was steadily increasing before and after the basketball team runs:

Enrollment figures from FGCU website
2010-11: 12,034
2011-12: 12,671 students
2012-13: 13,471
2013-14: 14,098
2014-15: 14,492
2015-16: 14,860
2016-17: 14,840
2017-18: 14,983
2018-19: 15,076
2019-20: 15,026
2020-21: 15,370

Schad - your hitting the crux of my argument - quantify it. Is it, in fact, worth it for BGSU to waxed by OSU (but occasionally win against a Big10 school) when we cannot consistently field a decent programs? I'm just not sure it differentiates us that much from Youngstown or Wright State at all. Further, whatever we receive from ESPN for our games isn't enough to move the needle when it comes to consistent success. BTW, Youngstown State plays Ohio State as well.

If that is your belief, why don't we go all in on basketball or hockey and regularly compete with the best in the country? Would it not seem reasonable that fielding top programs in both sports would significantly increase our brand recognition AND become a revenue maker?

I guess my question is: Are we here to win, or simply field a DI roster and be grateful to be called a part of the FBS?

notkithughes wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:36 pm Schad - your hitting the crux of my argument - quantify it. Is it, in fact, worth it for BGSU to waxed by OSU (but occasionally win against a Big10 school) when we cannot consistently field a decent programs? I'm just not sure it differentiates us that much from Youngstown or Wright State at all. Further, whatever we receive from ESPN for our games isn't enough to move the needle when it comes to consistent success. BTW, Youngstown State plays Ohio State as well.

If that is your belief, why don't we go all in on basketball or hockey and regularly compete with the best in the country?

I don't think anyone should have to defend FBS football at Bowling Green when Falcon men's basketball program is this atrocious. More often than not, the Bowling Green football team is more competitive than men's basketball. In football, the Falcons have won two MAC football championships this past decade. In men's basketball? As we all know, they haven't been to the NCAA tournament since the Johnson administration.

The double standards at work here are enormous. To suggest football might not worth pursuing at Bowling Green because the team likely would not win at Top 5 Ohio State right now is to set the bar awfully high considering that the men's basketball team can't even find a way to win at home against the likes of Southern Indiana or Queens.

(And let's not forget last year's men's basketball debacle in Columbus..)

Even in a mediocre or bad season, Bowling Green football does more for the university's brand than the basketball team would in a hypothetical championship season that never seems to come, despite some pretty big investments in facilities and coaching salaries over the past decade.

By definition, MAC football is in the upper half of Division I, and ESPN is willing to pay for the content, giving the university a lot of exposure. This is not the case with the Falcon men's basketball team. Last time I checked, Jeff Sagarin had the Falcons ranked No. 292 in Division I, and ESPN isn't forking over money for those games.

I know there are people around here who care about Falcon basketball. I'm sorry the basketball team is this bad right now. It isn't the football team's fault.

I'm glad we have a university president and an athletic director who recognize the importance of football at Bowling Green.

The intent of this conversation was not to be football vs basketball. You are correct that football has generally been better than basketball. But let's face it, while football has won 2 championships in the last decade, we have also had one of worst programs in the country the last 5.

What I'm getting at is we don't have enough money to field a consistently program (not an individual sport), period because of the way we are structured with DI programs in football, basketball and hockey. This Athletic Department steals from Peter to pay Paul everyday. Moreover, I'd say we are one investigation/lawsuit away from a serious Title IX problem with the NCAA. Some of our sports (read female) are funded are funded at an atrociously low level.

Right now, BGSU is in a Moneyball situation. We do not have the resources to compete against the Power 5 yet we continue to try. I pray the new AD has new ideas, or can start raining hidden money that I contend doesn't exist, that can change all this. Otherwise, we are going nowhere.

notkithughes wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:36 pm You are correct, Schad, G5. Thanks for the edit.

Thanks for the article, footballguy. That was an interesting case study. However, I'm not sure FGCU is an apples to apples comparison with Gonzaga or Butler, both of which are located is smallish towns. FGCU is located in a state that has seen huge population increases over the last 30 years and the enrollment was steadily increasing before and after the basketball team runs:

Enrollment figures from FGCU website
2010-11: 12,034
2011-12: 12,671 students
2012-13: 13,471
2013-14: 14,098
2014-15: 14,492
2015-16: 14,860
2016-17: 14,840
2017-18: 14,983
2018-19: 15,076
2019-20: 15,026
2020-21: 15,370

Schad - your hitting the crux of my argument - quantify it. Is it, in fact, worth it for BGSU to waxed by OSU (but occasionally win against a Big10 school) when we cannot consistently field a decent programs? I'm just not sure it differentiates us that much from Youngstown or Wright State at all. Further, whatever we receive from ESPN for our games isn't enough to move the needle when it comes to consistent success. BTW, Youngstown State plays Ohio State as well.

If that is your belief, why don't we go all in on basketball or hockey and regularly compete with the best in the country? Would it not seem reasonable that fielding top programs in both sports would significantly increase our brand recognition AND become a revenue maker?

I guess my question is: Are we here to win, or simply field a DI roster and be grateful to be called a part of the FBS?

The article mentions application rates, not enrollment numbers. Those numbers are two very different things, as enrollment numbers bring in $$ while applications are simply an expression of interest. Let's translate this to BGSU.

If BGSU were to pull off a banner season in a major sport, what would that do for the University and what would that season need to look like? In football, that would need to be BGSU making the playoffs. Winning the MAC is great, and winning the bowl game is nice, but people care about who is in the running for the title. Last year, everybody was talking about Alabama, Michigan, Georgia, and Cincinnati. Heck, Cincinnati managed to parlay that success into an invitation to a P5 conference. The teams that missed out on the playoffs were already big name teams (Notre Dame, Ohio State, Baylor, Ole Miss, etc.). The next mid-major in the rankings was BYU; they don't struggle for attendance due to their religious affiliations. Then you have to jump down to Houston and Louisiana to get to the next mid-major schools. Houston has had some historical success, but Louisiana was a new name. Just being ranked didn't get them the attention. This year, Tulane at 18 is the top mid-major, but nobody is jumping over themselves to apply there because they are ranked #18. However, Utah and TCU were mid-majors not that long ago and built sustained success to receive invitations to major conferences (PAC-12 and Big-12). So, BGSU would need to make those playoffs. In a couple years, that becomes an easier task with the expanded playoffs.

For basketball, BGSU would need to make a tourney run. Notice, I didn't say just make the tournament. Making the tournament and being one and done makes your fans feel good but does nothing in the national stage. FGCU made a run and had a fun team. Davidson in 2008 had Steph Curry and made it to the Elite 8. 2011 brought Butler and VCU both to the Final 4 to face each other and got Butler into the final game - people now think of Butler just like you do. And let's not forget in 2018 where we had Loyola Chicago with Sister Jean that somehow overshadowed the fact that UMBC, as a 16-seed, was the first 16 to ever beat a 1-seed. You have to do something in the tournament, not just make it.

I would argue that hockey would have less of an impact. Many of the schools that are major hockey schools are known to the hockey crowd. However, hockey isn't seen as a premier sport in the nation when compared to football or basketball. Winning another national title in hockey might yield more interest in our school, but not to the same level as the football or basketball accomplishments above would.

As for the difference between applications and enrollments, the easiest way is to look at revenue as I mentioned earlier. BGSU's enrollment cannot jump by 3000-4000 students in a year; heck, taking a freshman class and increasing it by even 1000 is extremely difficult. BGSU doesn't have the classroom space, the staff, the faculty, or the facilities (dorms, dining halls, etc.) to handle that many additional students. Perhaps they could add a bunch of online students, but then you still need employees that we don't currently have. However, an uptick in applications means you can select your students from a broader pool. You can bring in more talented students. Those students are more likely to graduate which means, with the current state funding models, we get more money from the state government. Additionally, we may be able to bring in a couple more big donors to create the infrastructure to have the capacity to admit more students. The enrollment jump could come, but it would be 5-10 years down the road at best. The application boost would be immediate and could spur those longer-term projects/investments/boosts.

I think the vale in beating P5 schools that aren't relevant within the P5 landscape is overrated. With the combonation of NIL and the Xfer portal...I don't know that we will be able to compete at the level we did during the Clwson and Babers years. We beat Maryland and Indiana in those years. With the $$ flowing from the B1G media deal and the ability for schools like them to poach kids and pay them...the outlook is not good

Comes down to perceived value vs. actual value. The actual value is next to zero since the department itself doesn't turn a profit without the assistance of fees being part of tuition. Perceived value is a lot of what 51 was explaining with FGCU. They had a run in the Dance, kids got turned on to the school, decided to apply because they obviously thought a successful basketball program would enhance their collegiate experience.

I mean, I was in that boat with BGSU. My dad took me to football games in the early 2000s. I saw Urban beat up on Missouri. I was a junior in high school while taking in College GameDay at the NIU game. I watched them beat Northwestern in the Motor City Bowl, and then beat Memphis a year later in the GMAC. I didn't want to go to a Big Ten school because I grew up in rural Ohio and those campuses felt too big to me, but the success of Falcon football at that time certainly had an impact in wanting to attend BGSU. A good football program was something I valued as part of my experience (turned out more bad that good at the end of the Brandon era) but you get the idea.

I think for sure in football that perceived value is going to greatly diminish over the next several years as the G5 becomes further behind the haves. The ESPN exposure is nice but let's call it what it is - the network needs midweek content in November and the MAC supplies it to them. Another entity would probably be more than happy to step in and fill that role but ESPN knows that football is king.