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And what makes you think it will get better next year?

One year of experience added for everyone will be great but I am not sure any of these guys we are adding are any better then what we already have. The best teams int he MAC traditionally seem to be guard oriented with big guards orgreat post players. Polk is still making the same mistakes last year and I dont see a dangerous true PG or big guard ont he horizon. This is a legitimate question not meant to be negative. I had huge high hopes for this season.

I was following stat lines and genuinely excited. I thought that this team was built for great things. 2 great Forwards. 2 Big Guards. A nice true point to go with them. A C by committee scenario that was producing. IT just seems like that has all fallen apart? Any reason why? I think the talent is there, and I know we need to be patient with a new coach but all I here around here is that we may lose to Eastern Illinois and 2 games in the MAC would be a success. A month ago I thought it was Kent, Miami and then us. Now it seems like people think we are worse then last year? What gives? Where is the drop off? And how can we expect it (outside of a coach been given time to implement his system) to end? i am not sure its a talent issue.

From an outsiders standpoint it seems obvious:

New coach, new system

Lost leading scorer, then best big man, then Recently) best remaining player

Not much talent to begin with and, other than Jakubowski falling in your lap, no real shot at recruiting.

Polk was a project at best and will probably pay dividends next year.

Knight wasn't the player everyone hoped- at least he isn't yet. Remember, he's a freshman and a year away from lacing 'em up in anger.

Not much has really changed since last year and I suspect the attitude of fans was the biggest change but there was really no reason for big time optimism except that Dakich was gone.

Orr will get BG back in the mix (dang it) but I really believe AA holds you all back some in recruiting-small building, small crowds and lately, weak competition hurts. I see Orr's task as taking 3 years or more before he competes for a MAC title.

Globetrotter wrote: I think the talent is there,

If you think the talent is there then you obviously haven't watched this team play. Let's take a look at the roster, shall we?


Chris Knight -- One of the top 2 or 3 talented players on this team. He's clearly athletic, and he can finish around the rim, and has a little bit of a jumper to go with it. Pretty good rebounder as well. Still, he's a freshman, and he plays like one. Good one night, disappears the next. He looked pretty good in the Oakland game, but that was about his only good performance since the Cincy tournament.

Nate Miller -- He's got some talent, but he's still a football player that wants to lace 'em up. He plays his ass off and is great around the rim. Unfortunately he's got an absolutely horrendous jump shot and isn't real great on the free throw line either. Defensively he is solid with quick hands and a strong body. Problem is he has the speed of a PF at a SG's height. Still a solid player, but he's not going to be winning any POY awards either.

Marc Larson -- Slow, unathletic, big man. What's to say? He gets open for a few layins every once in awhile, but he doesn't rebound, doesn't catch the ball well, and he's only average (at best) on defense. Just not talented enough to be the type of player you start on a good MAC team.

Daryl Clements -- Not sure what this kid's role really is. Flattest jumper I've ever seen. He'll show some flashes of scoring occasionally, but too rare to be worthwhile. Not a good passer, doesn't see the floor particularly well either. Probably are best defensive guard, but that's not saying a whole lot.

Joe Jakubowski -- He's shown some flashes, but he's another freshman. He's got some quickness off the dribble, but we haven't seen him display it with any consistency yet. Not a great defender, not sure he ever will be. His jumper looks like it could develop into a weapon, but he's not there yet. I'm happy with what I've seen from Joe, but he really needs to up the assists, cut down on the turnovers, and work on that jumper. I think he's got some talent, but you shouldn't be starting freshmen PGs.

Then looking at the bench:

Polk -- Same player he was last year. Loads of talent, but he's raw. Great size, and a pretty good athlete for his size. Fouls a TON, but draws some fouls too. Of course his foul shooting is pretty bad, so drawing fouls doesn't do him a ton of good. Does well boxing out, but his hands are poor...hurts when catching entry passes and battling for rebounds. He's still a talented project...only a sophomore, so I hope he can put it together next year.

Moten -- He's got the best jumper on the team, and does a pretty good job finishing around the rim on the break. Unfortunately he doesn't have the ability to get his own shot in the half court set; purely a catch & shoot guy, in that regard. That would be okay, but he's also horrendous on defense. Until he becomes at least below average he's going to struggle to see playing time.

Sims -- Right there with Moten for the best jump shots on the team. Cannot handle the ball or create his own shot, either. Like Moten, he's a major liability on the defensive end as well. He's also undersized as a SG, without the skills to play the point.

Madlock -- Looks like a project, and he's obviously not ready to play yet or he'd be getting some minutes.


Basically this team is going only 8 deep and half of those guys have yet to show me that they really deserve a D1 scholarship, let alone major minutes. We really don't have many people who can hit open jump shots, and those that can don't log major minutes because they have other serious deficiencies. We have a true freshman as the only player even remotely capable of running the point. Our big men struggle to stay on the floor and out of foul trouble. Our forward tandem of Miller & Knight is solid, but there is no depth behind them at all.

As somebody who's seen a few games live, and listened to all the others on the radio, I really want to know where you can possibly say, "The talent is there?" I just don't see it. What's more, not only is the talent not there right this minute, the only guys who I ever see becoming real players on this team are Knight, Jakubowski, and possibly Polk. Knight & Jak have shown some good flashes as freshmen, they should develop. Polk is still a project, hopefully he'll develop, but he really needs to work on his defensive discipline. I suppose Madlock could eventually develop into something as well, but with having seen almost nothing of him it's tough to say.

The rest of this team is pretty unlikely to ever improve much before their eligibility is up.

To sum it all up, I guess, the talent is not there. In fact the previous regime did as poor a job recruiting talent as anyone in the conference. We've been woefully undermanned for the last 5 years and until I start to see some of Orr's recruits added to JoeJak & Knight I think we're going to continue to be outmanned. There just isn't much talent on this team.

I haven't seen too much of this year's team (most of two or three games), but I would say that our biggest problem is our inabilty to actually make a shot

I think Knight, Jak, and Miller can be real players. Actually, Miller already is a real player, but he does have limits. Also, let's not forget about Erik Marcshall. He will be one of the best forwards in the MAC next year if he can stay out of foul trouble.

Moten and Sims have been big disappointments. Furthermore, both guys have the opportunity to step up this year and neither one is. Both of these guys have not walked through the open door and have been beaten out by a freshman. In fact, these two guys seem to be producing LESS than last year.

In Sims, Moten, Larson, Polk, and possibly Clements, we have regular players that wouldn't be in the rotation for good MAC teams Kent, Ohio, or Miami.

Again, with the junior Moten, if he isn't a player by now, he probably won't ever be. With Polk, he's shown absolutely no progress whatsoever with his fouling. Because of that, he can't get the minutes that he needs to develop in other areas. At this point, after a year and a half, I'm doubting that he'll ever do anything meaningful here.

Flipper wrote:I haven't seen too much of this year's team (most of two or three games), but I would say that our biggest problem is our inabilty to actually make a shot

I LOLed here. But then I looked up the FG% on BGSUfalcons.com and we have some guys shooting well.

BleedOrange wrote:I think Knight, Jak, and Miller can be real players. Actually, Miller already is a real player, but he does have limits. Also, let's not forget about Erik Marcshall. He will be one of the best forwards in the MAC next year if he can stay out of foul trouble.

Moten and Sims have been big disappointments. Furthermore, both guys have the opportunity to step up this year and neither one is. Both of these guys have not walked through the open door and have been beaten out by a freshman. In fact, these two guys seem to be producing LESS than last year.

In Sims, Moten, Larson, Polk, and possibly Clements, we have regular players that wouldn't be in the rotation for good MAC teams Kent, Ohio, or Miami.

Again, with the junior Moten, if he isn't a player by now, he probably won't ever be. With Polk, he's shown absolutely no progress whatsoever with his fouling. Because of that, he can't get the minutes that he needs to develop in other areas. At this point, after a year and a half, I'm doubting that he'll ever do anything meaningful here.

this is kind of why I made the post. I think that everyone of those players, other then Simms, can be very good. Polk has looked great if he could stop fouling, Clements and Moten have both went off in the scoring category before but cant seem to stay consistent. Larson was much better then I every remember in the beginning of the year. It just seems like none of these players are developing, not one. That seems really strange to me.

hammb wrote:

Globetrotter wrote: I think the talent is there,

If you think the talent is there then you obviously haven't watched this team play. Let's take a look at the roster, shall we?


Chris Knight -- One of the top 2 or 3 talented players on this team. He's clearly athletic, and he can finish around the rim, and has a little bit of a jumper to go with it. Pretty good rebounder as well. Still, he's a freshman, and he plays like one. Good one night, disappears the next. He looked pretty good in the Oakland game, but that was about his only good performance since the Cincy tournament.

Nate Miller -- He's got some talent, but he's still a football player that wants to lace 'em up. He plays his ass off and is great around the rim. Unfortunately he's got an absolutely horrendous jump shot and isn't real great on the free throw line either. Defensively he is solid with quick hands and a strong body. Problem is he has the speed of a PF at a SG's height. Still a solid player, but he's not going to be winning any POY awards either.

Marc Larson -- Slow, unathletic, big man. What's to say? He gets open for a few layins every once in awhile, but he doesn't rebound, doesn't catch the ball well, and he's only average (at best) on defense. Just not talented enough to be the type of player you start on a good MAC team.

Daryl Clements -- Not sure what this kid's role really is. Flattest jumper I've ever seen. He'll show some flashes of scoring occasionally, but too rare to be worthwhile. Not a good passer, doesn't see the floor particularly well either. Probably are best defensive guard, but that's not saying a whole lot.

Joe Jakubowski -- He's shown some flashes, but he's another freshman. He's got some quickness off the dribble, but we haven't seen him display it with any consistency yet. Not a great defender, not sure he ever will be. His jumper looks like it could develop into a weapon, but he's not there yet. I'm happy with what I've seen from Joe, but he really needs to up the assists, cut down on the turnovers, and work on that jumper. I think he's got some talent, but you shouldn't be starting freshmen PGs.

Then looking at the bench:

Polk -- Same player he was last year. Loads of talent, but he's raw. Great size, and a pretty good athlete for his size. Fouls a TON, but draws some fouls too. Of course his foul shooting is pretty bad, so drawing fouls doesn't do him a ton of good. Does well boxing out, but his hands are poor...hurts when catching entry passes and battling for rebounds. He's still a talented project...only a sophomore, so I hope he can put it together next year.

Moten -- He's got the best jumper on the team, and does a pretty good job finishing around the rim on the break. Unfortunately he doesn't have the ability to get his own shot in the half court set; purely a catch & shoot guy, in that regard. That would be okay, but he's also horrendous on defense. Until he becomes at least below average he's going to struggle to see playing time.

Sims -- Right there with Moten for the best jump shots on the team. Cannot handle the ball or create his own shot, either. Like Moten, he's a major liability on the defensive end as well. He's also undersized as a SG, without the skills to play the point.

Madlock -- Looks like a project, and he's obviously not ready to play yet or he'd be getting some minutes.


Basically this team is going only 8 deep and half of those guys have yet to show me that they really deserve a D1 scholarship, let alone major minutes. We really don't have many people who can hit open jump shots, and those that can don't log major minutes because they have other serious deficiencies. We have a true freshman as the only player even remotely capable of running the point. Our big men struggle to stay on the floor and out of foul trouble. Our forward tandem of Miller & Knight is solid, but there is no depth behind them at all.

As somebody who's seen a few games live, and listened to all the others on the radio, I really want to know where you can possibly say, "The talent is there?" I just don't see it. What's more, not only is the talent not there right this minute, the only guys who I ever see becoming real players on this team are Knight, Jakubowski, and possibly Polk. Knight & Jak have shown some good flashes as freshmen, they should develop. Polk is still a project, hopefully he'll develop, but he really needs to work on his defensive discipline. I suppose Madlock could eventually develop into something as well, but with having seen almost nothing of him it's tough to say.

The rest of this team is pretty unlikely to ever improve much before their eligibility is up.

To sum it all up, I guess, the talent is not there. In fact the previous regime did as poor a job recruiting talent as anyone in the conference. We've been woefully undermanned for the last 5 years and until I start to see some of Orr's recruits added to JoeJak & Knight I think we're going to continue to be outmanned. There just isn't much talent on this team.

I have not watched a second of the team this season. My thoughts are based purely off BGSUfalcons.com and ay-ziggy-zoomba.com. My thoughts are kind of just a conglomoration of your guys thoughts, I think thats why I was so surprised at how we got so bad so fast. On Paper this team looks great to me. The types of players you want at every position, and when I have seen Nate Miller play he was very fun to watch.

From what I take of next years additions and our potential improvement therein.

Calhoun will be an athletic but undersized post who will be able to do a bit of everything.
Thomas is a wing i think but with some size and who can score
The guard seems to be more of a scorer who lacks size?
And then we get Marschall back hopefully.

BleedOrange wrote: In Sims, Moten, Larson, Polk, and possibly Clements, we have regular players that wouldn't be in the rotation for good MAC teams Kent, Ohio, or Miami.

That's exactly it. I think Polk would be in those teams' rotations, but the other guys? Kinda doubt it. Even if Polk did crack their rotation he would still only get 10 mpg because of his fouling.

Globetrotter wrote: I have not watched a second of the team this season. My thoughts are based purely off BGSUfalcons.com and ay-ziggy-zoomba.com. My thoughts are kind of just a conglomoration of your guys thoughts, I think thats why I was so surprised at how we got so bad so fast. On Paper this team looks great to me. The types of players you want at every position, and when I have seen Nate Miller play he was very fun to watch.

From what I take of next years additions and our potential improvement therein.

Calhoun will be an athletic but undersized post who will be able to do a bit of everything.
Thomas is a wing i think but with some size and who can score
The guard seems to be more of a scorer who lacks size?
And then we get Marschall back hopefully.

On paper the team looks better than it is, I can see where you're coming from. When you look at a team on paper you see:

Knight -- Pretty good numbers for a freshman...had some big games already.
Jakubowski -- Doing alright for a freshman, can grow as year goes on.
Larson -- Definitely been producing more than last year, nice to see improvement.
Clements -- He's had some big games, hopefully he can gain some consistency!
Miller -- Continues to score & rebound, what's not to love?

Bench:

Polk -- Man his size! Look at the production, just needs to cut down the fouls!
Sims -- He's had some good scoring games, if he can get on the court more often.
Moten -- He's got a good shooting percentage, and has had some good games too.


Problem is every player on this roster is seriously flawed, which makes their on court performance less than their on paper performance. Miller is the best player right now, but his shooting is so poor he's very one dimensional. I'm pleased with what we've seen from Knight & Jakubowski as well, but they're still just freshmen, and they play that way. Knight shows some flashes that he's definitely got the goods for the future, but he's not ready to carry a team yet.

On paper, I think this team does look better than it really is, but the reality is that we've been left with a roster that is:

A) Devoid of upper classmen leadership. Our lone senior couldn't even keep himself eligible, let alone lead the team.

B) Not nearly enough experienced players that have any talent

C) The young players have talent, but none are polished.

D) Does not have a single polished pure scorer. Not one player that can create his own shot, get to the rim and force the issue on a consistent basis.


The last one is where I think we miss Marschall. That kid could score, and would probably be giving us 15-20 points a night. I think his defense was awful, and his fouling will always keep him off the court, but when he was on the floor he'd be our best scorer, and would really help open things up for guys like Moten to get open jumpers as well.

Hammbone, your post is right on the money, but I have a nitpick: I don't know why you keep saying Big E's D is so awful. Granted, he's no Dennis Rodman, but what gives? Huh?

BleedOrange wrote:Hammbone, your post is right on the money, but I have a nitpick: I don't know why you keep saying Big E's D is so awful. Granted, he's no Dennis Rodman, but what gives? Huh?

I don't think there is a PF in the MAC that Marschall can effectively guard. To me, that is why he has always been so foul prone. He just always seems to get outmuscled by the big guys, or outquicked by the more athletic guys. That's when he starts fouling people and sent himself to the bench.

I could be wrong, but that was my impression of him.

Don't get me wrong, because I think he's a very polished post scorer, and he's got range out to 8-10 feet as well. I think we miss his points immensely, especially since we lost the 12 ppg that Hamblet was contributing. I really like Erik's offensive game, but I don't think he's a good defensive player at all. Still he'd help this team immensely by giving them a true go to option on offense.

Of course that impression was built on his FR & SO seasons, before he was coached by a former NBA post player. It's certainly conceivable that coach Orr can get more out of him defensively than we saw in years past. I'll need to see it to believe it though.

hammb wrote:

BleedOrange wrote:Hammbone, your post is right on the money, but I have a nitpick: I don't know why you keep saying Big E's D is so awful. Granted, he's no Dennis Rodman, but what gives? Huh?

I don't think there is a PF in the MAC that Marschall can effectively guard. To me, that is why he has always been so foul prone. He just always seems to get outmuscled by the big guys, or outquicked by the more athletic guys. That's when he starts fouling people and sent himself to the bench.

I could be wrong, but that was my impression of him.

Don't get me wrong, because I think he's a very polished post scorer, and he's got range out to 8-10 feet as well. I think we miss his points immensely, especially since we lost the 12 ppg that Hamblet was contributing. I really like Erik's offensive game, but I don't think he's a good defensive player at all. Still he'd help this team immensely by giving them a true go to option on offense.

Of course that impression was built on his FR & SO seasons, before he was coached by a former NBA post player. It's certainly conceivable that coach Orr can get more out of him defensively than we saw in years past. I'll need to see it to believe it though.

Overall, though, Marcshall has more than enough athleticism to be a good defender, and he doesn't have Polk's weight issues. He does have an issue with upper body strength. He's not skinny, but he lacks muscle mass in his chest and arms. Hopefully, he's lifting like a beast while he's out. Also, he has good form on his shot. Maybe he'll take advantage of this time of to stretch his range out to 21'.

BleedOrange wrote:

hammb wrote:

BleedOrange wrote:Hammbone, your post is right on the money, but I have a nitpick: I don't know why you keep saying Big E's D is so awful. Granted, he's no Dennis Rodman, but what gives? Huh?

I don't think there is a PF in the MAC that Marschall can effectively guard. To me, that is why he has always been so foul prone. He just always seems to get outmuscled by the big guys, or outquicked by the more athletic guys. That's when he starts fouling people and sent himself to the bench.

I could be wrong, but that was my impression of him.

Don't get me wrong, because I think he's a very polished post scorer, and he's got range out to 8-10 feet as well. I think we miss his points immensely, especially since we lost the 12 ppg that Hamblet was contributing. I really like Erik's offensive game, but I don't think he's a good defensive player at all. Still he'd help this team immensely by giving them a true go to option on offense.

Of course that impression was built on his FR & SO seasons, before he was coached by a former NBA post player. It's certainly conceivable that coach Orr can get more out of him defensively than we saw in years past. I'll need to see it to believe it though.

Overall, though, Marcshall has more than enough athleticism to be a good defender, and he doesn't have Polk's weight issues. He does have an issue with upper body strength. He's not skinny, but he lacks muscle mass in his chest and arms. Hopefully, he's lifting like a beast while he's out. Also, he has good form on his shot. Maybe he'll take advantage of this time of to stretch his range out to 21'.

If he could take his range out that far and develop a jumper similar to Almanson's that would be incredibly valuable. From what I saw last year I think Marschall was already a better post scorer than Almanson was...if he could add the outside part as well? I'd be quite happy. I have to believe the original intent was to see a lot of Marschall & Knight out there together. Perhaps even with Polk/Larson at the 5 and moving Knight to the SF spot. That's a pretty big lineup that should be tough for MAC teams to defend.

At this point this season is just about seeing some growth. I know from what I've seen already that I like this system a heckuva lot better than the last one. Now it's just a matter of finding the players to put into this system.

I think I've said this in the chat room before, but I cannot help but bring it up again. Can you imagine what our '02 team could've done in this offensive system? Pardon & McLeod breaking things down off the dribble with Ryan waiting in the wings for the open shot & Lenny setting up in the paint? Put that talent in this system and I think we're right alongside KSU in the big dance...probably not as deep as they made it, but still I think we would've had a good chance to be in the tourney and win there.

BleedOrange wrote: Also, let's not forget about Erik Marcshall. He will be one of the best forwards in the MAC next year if he can stay out of foul trouble.

When I read a statement like this it reminds me how un-objective some of us can be when it comes to evaluating our own talent. I have nothing against Eric Marschall…he is probably our best big man and sorely missed by this year’s team. But, to think he will be one of the “best big men in the MAC next year” is just crazy.

Eric’s has been a serviceable big man in a position that BG has been woefully weak at over the last few years. Eric averaged 7 ppg and 4 rpg as a freshman and 9 & 4 last year. I hope to God he rehabs his injury and comes back to be an impact player for us over the next couple of years. Anything beyond that will be “gravy” for this program.