The season ended Cavs thread...and NBA discussion in general

[Warthog]

Lee was 5th in the East in PER last year, and Boozer would have been 6th.

And Nazr Mohammed was 10th, ahead of the likes of Garnett, Rondo, Rose, Pierce, among others. You taking Nazr over anybody?

And Shaq was just a tick behind Noah (23rd adn 24th). You think Shaq was = to Noah? Just pointing out that the PER has some flaws in it.

[Flipper]

Re Miami...I've seen the "super team" bit before in Philadelphia back in the 70's. They had Doc, McGinnis, Doug Collins, Steve Mix, Lloyd Free, Caldwell Jones and Darrell Dawkins and they didn't win a title until they pretty much turned the roster over...and added Moses Malone. The point is...in the NBA what looks great on paper often looks less than great on the court. How did Shaq, Karl Malone, Kobe and Gary Payton fare against the Pistons in the 2004 finals?

I hope Lebron stays in Cleveland....I'm sick of the rust belt getting kicked in the nads. He would look great operating along with Rip Hamilton....I'd be interested in Hickson and a bad contract for Hamilton....

So far as my beloved Pistons go...in light of the money thrown at Rudy Gay, Darko Milicic, Amare Johnson and even Joe Johnson (he is NOT a max player)....the Gordon and Villanueva signings don't seem so bad now...

[Lord_Byron]

. . . He also knows, right now, that pretty much everybody loves him...he's a megastar with tons of media appeal. If he bolts to another city he's going to have a large segment of fans that absolutely HATE him. Obviously tons of Cavs fans will hate him, but I think a lot of casual NBA fans will see him as a mercenary to bolted on his hometown team too.

Either way, I think this whole process has really shown exactly what you say. He's an attention whore and is eating all of this up.

I agree with all this. I also think he loves the adoration and would have a problem with the hate that could happen if he leaves. I think either Pluto or Livingston wrote that Lebron was 10 years old when the scum-suckingest-owner-who-was-so-incompetent-he-couldn't-make-money-on-football-in-Cleveland moved the Browns. Things stick with 10 year olds.

All that said, is he so tone-deaf that he'd ask for one hour of national TV time to say he was leaving Cleveland? That would just amp up the hate. It's hard for me to see that given his image consciousness.

[NWLB]

All that said, is he so tone-deaf that he'd ask for one hour of national TV time to say he was leaving Cleveland? That would just amp up the hate. It's hard for me to see that given his image consciousness.

Amp up the hate with who? The people whose team he WON'T play for? Nah. You don't take an hour of prime-time to tell people you are staying in Cleveland, the world would laugh, unfair as that might be. He sees himself as a national brand, and he is. Going to a New York makes him a national brand name. Sure, Cleveland fans can hate him forever, but half won't. Half will have his jersey on next year, even if it has a New York logo on it. And the millions of people who he gains as fans would mute any concerns about some Clevelanders hating him.

I think he went on Larry King Live weeks ago, in part because his "people" are laying the ground work for leaving. He was all about how he "wanted to stay in Cleveland" in that interview. What it really was about, was going on a show where he won't be held to anything he says, but makes it look like he "tried" to stay, but it "just didn't work out."

Nope, he's gone, has been from the start I think.

[Lord_Byron]

Amp up the hate with who?

People who buy products that bought into his image.

Fans of small market franchises that lose future hope for their teams if they are lucky enough to be in the same place.

Flipper, and his aforementioned rust-belt bias.

Sponsors who want to portray an image of their product that isn't a money-grubber who leaves his hometown (read: McDonald's).

Chinese part owners of the Cavs who are looking to boost his marketing in China.

Fans in Chicago, Miami, New York, New Jersey and LA if he signs for someone other than the Cavs.

[NWLB]

Amp up the hate with who?

People who buy products that bought into his image.

Fans of small market franchises that lose future hope for their teams if they are lucky enough to be in the same place.

Flipper, and his aforementioned rust-belt bias.

Sponsors who want to portray an image of their product that isn't a money-grubber who leaves his hometown (read: McDonald's).

Chinese part owners of the Cavs who are looking to boost his marketing in China.

Fans in Chicago, Miami, New York, New Jersey and LA if he signs for someone other than the Cavs.

Not trying to dump on the hope he stays in Cleveland, but again, its numbers. More money to play, more fans, etc. The wider world just isn't going to buy the idea that leaving Cleveland is somehow a great sin. I don't know if I've ever heard of anybody talk about "small market franchise" fans before. And for most of them, who aren't Cleveland fan, it is a none issue. Sponsors would love the fact he moves to a market where he is easily more promotable. As for Flipper, well, do we really have to explain him?

And now, because I can Salma:

[Jacobs4Heisman]

Lee was 5th in the East in PER last year, and Boozer would have been 6th.

And Nazr Mohammed was 10th, ahead of the likes of Garnett, Rondo, Rose, Pierce, among others. You taking Nazr over anybody?

And Shaq was just a tick behind Noah (23rd adn 24th). You think Shaq was = to Noah? Just pointing out that the PER has some flaws in it.

Agreed. Per is also the best tool currently readily available to compare players. I think you can safely discount the top guys that only play 17 minutes a game. Any reasonable person, like you said, obviously realizes that Shaq is nowhere near as valuable as Noah moving forward, and Nazr is an outlier. For guys that play 30+ minutes a game and more than 20-30 games, it's a pretty valuable resource.

And we now know that it's Boozer. Is there honestly anybody on the Cavs not named LeBron that you would take for the next 5 years over Boozer, Rose, or Noah (from a purely basketball standpoint - I'm sure you hate Noah, and have some boozer issues, as I would)?

[MarkL]

Amp up the hate with who?

People who buy products that bought into his image.

Fans of small market franchises that lose future hope for their teams if they are lucky enough to be in the same place.

Flipper, and his aforementioned rust-belt bias.

Sponsors who want to portray an image of their product that isn't a money-grubber who leaves his hometown (read: McDonald's).

Chinese part owners of the Cavs who are looking to boost his marketing in China.

Fans in Chicago, Miami, New York, New Jersey and LA if he signs for someone other than the Cavs.

Not trying to dump on the hope he stays in Cleveland, but again, its numbers. More money to play, more fans, etc. The wider world just isn't going to buy the idea that leaving Cleveland is somehow a great sin. I don't know if I've ever heard of anybody talk about "small market franchise" fans before. And for most of them, who aren't Cleveland fan, it is a none issue. Sponsors would love the fact he moves to a market where he is easily more promotable. As for Flipper, well, do we really have to explain him?

And now, because I can Salma:

MarkL had a bad day. MarkL needs a hug.

[Rightupinthere]

He sees himself as a national brand, and he is. Going to a New York makes him a national brand name.

I can name that contradiction in two sentences. How can he become and name brand if he already is a name brand?

First he was going to announce his decision through members of his website and now it's going to be an hour of TV. It's almost as if his decisions are being made by 25 year old kids.

Oh, that's right, they are.

There is one thing I know, when it comes to ego and a person's management of it, nothing appears to make sense.

I'm one of the fans of the city of Cleveland who really doesn't give a rat's @ss since I'm no fan of professional sports. I usually get mad when a business leaves town or when a Cleveland loses something which truly makes this city great [the Cleveland Ballet comes to mind.] Losing a brainless jock doesn't define a city.

[Warthog]

I'm one of the fans of the city of Cleveland who really doesn't give a rat's @ss since I'm no fan of professional sports. I usually get mad when a business leaves town or when a Cleveland loses something which truly makes this city great [the Cleveland Ballet comes to mind.] Losing a brainless jock doesn't define a city.

I think you are failing to recognize the economic impact this will have on the city of Cleveland. $300,000,000 is the estimate. This isn't just about professional sports. This one goes way deeper than that.

[Lord_Byron]

Not trying to dump on the hope he stays in Cleveland, but again, its numbers. More money to play, more fans, etc. The wider world just isn't going to buy the idea that leaving Cleveland is somehow a great sin. I don't know if I've ever heard of anybody talk about "small market franchise" fans before. And for most of them, who aren't Cleveland fan, it is a none issue. Sponsors would love the fact he moves to a market where he is easily more promotable. As for Flipper, well, do we really have to explain him?

You most certainly are trying to "dump on the hope that he stays in Cleveland". Otherwise, you wouldn't fill your posts with non-sequitur arguments:

More money to play? -- He can get more by staying in Cleveland

More fans? In the arena-- hardly. More in the population, of another city, yes. But he'll hardly receive the beatification he gets in Cleveland.

Never heard of fans of Pittsburgh Pirates, Kansas City Royals, Minnesota Twins, etc? Never heard those fans complain about revenues and free agents? Do a google search on "Twins Joe Mauer" to get an example of small-market hometown athlete.

More promotable? For whom, "Nobody Beats the Wiz"? He won't be more famous than he is now no matter where he plays. He's already a worldwide brand.

I'll stand by my thought that he and his people are not going to put the Cleveland fans through the agony of a TV show to say he's going somewhere else. He's self absorbed, but I don't think he's cruel.

[Rightupinthere]

I'm one of the fans of the city of Cleveland who really doesn't give a rat's @ss since I'm no fan of professional sports. I usually get mad when a business leaves town or when a Cleveland loses something which truly makes this city great [the Cleveland Ballet comes to mind.] Losing a brainless jock doesn't define a city.

I think you are failing to recognize the economic impact this will have on the city of Cleveland. $300,000,000 is the estimate. This isn't just about professional sports. This one goes way deeper than that.

I've discounted nothing. I've reviewed those numbers and find them illogical. I believe they assume that there would be NO downtown traffic should LeBron leave.

I stand by my words. It's takes more than a single person to make or break the city.

[Redwingtom]

All I can say about this whole fiasco is that just when you think ESPN can do no more to make you despise them, they come up with this brilliant idea to totally eliminate any journalistic integrity that may have remained.

[Warthog]

All I can say about this whole fiasco is that just when you think ESPN can do no more to make you despise them, they come up with this brilliant idea to totally eliminate any journalistic integrity that may have remained.

What's with all the hate on ESPN. It was James that came to them with this idea. Are they supposed to tell him no, we don't want to air a program that MILLIONS of people around the world want to see?

[Flipper]

<Snip> It's takes more than a single person to make or break the city.

Having been around Detroit during the Kwame Kilpatrick and Coleman Young eras...I would dispute that...

So far as the economic impact goes...I think it could be substantial. The Cavs are a magnet for downtown. Attendance will surely suffer greatly as the team falls from championship contender to fringe lottery team overnight. Fewer people will be in the habit of heading downtown...when you're in an area a lot you notice other activities or places you'd like to explore. Fewer people at Cavs games means fewer people making a habit of heading downtown. Businesses fail...people leave...the wolves and bears move in and eat the rest...I've seen it happen dozens of times