Big trouble at the U of T

h2oville rocket · Post by **h2oville rocket** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:38 pm

Redwingtom wrote: I am certainly not ready to clear UT of all speculation yet.

Instant classic!

Flipper · Post by **Flipper** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:43 pm

Redwingtom wrote:
Flipper wrote:I don't think the University has much to worry about as an institution so far as criminal proceedings go. Individuals speaking with folks who are targets or material witnesses in an ongoing Federal prosecution sure could face obstruction of justice charges if the Feds think they're coaching witnesses.

They're smart to steer clear until they hear otherwise.
Who knows. I guess it all depends upon how far this thing goes and who knew what and when. I am certainly not ready to clear UT of all speculation yet.

Also, do you honestly think that no one at UT has asked Tommy Boy or Stan the Man if they knew or saw anything yet?????

Yeah...they made statements to the media already, so I'm assuming those remarks were vetted by UTs attornies.

That's a bit different than sticking your nose into an ongoing investigation when you have been told not to by people who can have you charged with some pretty heavy criminal offenses.

redskins4ever · Post by **redskins4ever** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:11 pm

It is illegal to interfere with a federal investigation, hence UT or TU or whatever they are calling themselves is in no position to do anything but sit tight!

MarkL · Post by **MarkL** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:55 pm

redskins4ever wrote:It is illegal to interfere with a federal investigation, hence UT or TU or whatever they are calling themselves is in no position to do anything but sit tight!

That's obstruction of justice, right? That's a pretty serious offense there. I have a lot of respect for coach Amstutz, and if he loses his job, it'll be a huge loss for UT and for the MAC.

Redwingtom · Post by **Redwingtom** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:43 pm

redskins4ever wrote:It is illegal to interfere with a federal investigation, hence UT or TU or whatever they are calling themselves is in no position to do anything but sit tight!

Would conducting your own investigation necessarily be interfering with theirs?
I guess I just don't have too much trust in any government organization about now so I would certainly want to have all the facts ready for when they hit you with theirs.

Schadenfreude · Post by **Schadenfreude** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:30 am

The Blade is all over this.

One report suggests the words of the Las Vegas oddsmaker may not be accurate, that the NCAA was never alerted to possible point shaving at Toledo:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... /704050412

That said, the Detroit Free Press confirms that the Las Vegas gaming commission was alerted:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar ... 50349/1019

Another Blade story checks in with McDougle's family in East Cleveland:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... /704050431

LakelandRocket · Post by **LakelandRocket** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:54 am

Redwingtom wrote:
rocketfootball wrote:
Redwingtom wrote: Okay, so let me get this straight. The University of Toledo could end up being criminally liable for something a paid employee did but they can't try and find out any facts in order to prepare a swift and adequate defense until the FBI tells them to?

Sounds like your AD should be fired now if this is the approach they are taking.

I am no lawyer or constitutional expert, but I can't imagine the FBI has the authority to tell UT that their lawyers can't investigate to determine any potential exposure to criminal liability that the university may be subject to.

But that was not the original point I was making anyway. I was just observing that I think I see where Toledo's priorities are right now.

Maybe you should just keep quiet on things you don't know about. It is pretty standard procedure for the FBI to have total control of investigations they are doing and to tell others not to investigate anything until they have given the OK.

Explore options with an attorney? Oh I'm sure UT has done that. Interview players and launch their own internal investigation? It would be very wise to listen to the FBI and wait.

Finally, I find it funny that you are playing "Administration Man" and talk about where you think Toledo's priorities are. Running a University and an Athletic Department is not something you can do without multi-tasking. There are a lot of priorities right now, just like at any time. And one of the smartest things you can do is to continue to move on with things you were doing before. Not doing so is just going to hurt the University in the long run. Why should UT not continue their capital campaign and continue to look at upgrading facilities and so forth?

RWT, you can't really be as stupid as you sound when you post about Toledo, can you?
Skippy, I clearly stated that I don't know anything about legal procedure and was only making an observation of something that on the surface does not appear to me to be constitutional.

BTW - Who's favored in your spring game this year?

I'm not sure who is favored. Word on the street on Bancroft is that Scooter will sit this one out, favoring the blue team to cover.

I'd like to know how many people bet on Temple vs. BG last year. Alot of people were betting pigs and livestock on Temple. Hmmmmm.

Rightupinthere · Post by **Rightupinthere** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:53 am

LakelandRocket wrote: I'd like to know how many people bet on Temple vs. BG last year. Alot of people were betting pigs and livestock on Temple. Hmmmmm.

The livestock was lost at the tractor pull. Ironically, I lost my tractor on the Temple game.

h2oville rocket · Post by **h2oville rocket** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:35 pm

Rightupinthere wrote:
LakelandRocket wrote: I'd like to know how many people bet on Temple vs. BG last year. Alot of people were betting pigs and livestock on Temple. Hmmmmm.

The livestock was lost at the tractor pull. Ironically, I lost my tractor on the Temple game.

I know several BG fans who lost their lunches on that one.

Redwingtom · Post by **Redwingtom** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:50 pm

Flipper wrote:I don't think the University has much to worry about as an institution so far as criminal proceedings go. Individuals speaking with folks who are targets or material witnesses in an ongoing Federal prosecution sure could face obstruction of justice charges if the Feds think they're coaching witnesses.

They're smart to steer clear until they hear otherwise.

Some interesting quotes from Erik Christianson the NCAA Director of Public and Media Relations:

Mr. Christianson said that student athletes caught wagering on sports will lose all of their eligibility to compete in college sports and will be subject to criminal charges.

He said that the school in question might be found culpable, even if school officials were not aware of the activity.

"Their campus can also be cited for violating NCAA rules related to institutional control if it knew about the situation, or should have known about it," Mr. Christianson said.

BGDrew · Post by **BGDrew** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:54 pm

In other words, this is going to be an extremely long investigation.

rocketfootball · Post by **rocketfootball** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:55 pm

Redwingtom wrote:
Flipper wrote:I don't think the University has much to worry about as an institution so far as criminal proceedings go. Individuals speaking with folks who are targets or material witnesses in an ongoing Federal prosecution sure could face obstruction of justice charges if the Feds think they're coaching witnesses.

They're smart to steer clear until they hear otherwise.
Some interesting quotes from Erik Christianson the NCAA Director of Public and Media Relations:

Mr. Christianson said that student athletes caught wagering on sports will lose all of their eligibility to compete in college sports and will be subject to criminal charges.

He said that the school in question might be found culpable, even if school officials were not aware of the activity.

"Their campus can also be cited for violating NCAA rules related to institutional control if it knew about the situation, or should have known about it," Mr. Christianson said.

To take this further, all student-athletes at UT have to sign a form stating that they will not bet on sports, so anyone doing so is an violation of the code of conduct and could be expelled from the University as well.

The NCAA would not comment on whether or not there is or will be an investigation into the University of Toledo about this, but you have to expect that there either already is or will be. They also said that they never received any information on this until UT contacted them on Friday evening after UT heard about it from the FBI. The Mr White guy in Vegas says he contacted the NCAA, but originally he said in October of 2005 and now he is saying he didn't do it until the summer of 2006. Not sure why he is changing his story.

Finally, the part that is really scary here is that the NCAA did a survey of student-athletes in 2003 and 35% admitted in the survey to betting on sports. Going by what the NCAA has said, at least 35% of all student-athletes will lose their remaining eligibility if they ever get caught betting on sports like they say they do. That's alarming!

Flipper · Post by **Flipper** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:05 pm

It's a tempting pitch for the gambler to make...the NCAA restricts player's ability to earn $$$ as student-athletes. Football generates a lot of $$$ (even though it's a money loser outside the BCS). Providing inside information to gamblers or taking that extra step to shave points and manipulate the betting outcome seems like a victimless crime to the player, they aren't being asked to lose per se, just impact the game's final margin. The only people hurt are the suckers betting on the game, but they should know better, right?

A person raised in an amoral or immoral enviroment would be easily swayed by that line of thought....

maquisard · Post by **maquisard** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:51 pm

To take this further, all student-athletes at UT have to sign a form stating that they will not bet on sports, so anyone doing so is an violation of the code of conduct and could be expelled from the University as well.

How many new recruits will UT lose after hearing this news?

35% of what, betting on what? There's a big difference between $20 bucks on OSU at a party and Scooter "Big Man in da Hood" McDoodle. It's one of the wonderful things about statistics and polls, but I understand where you're going.

rocketfootball · Post by **rocketfootball** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:03 pm

According to what RWT posted, the NCAA doesn't see any difference.......wagering on sports at all will lose your eligibility.

It was 35% of the student-athletes surveyed by the NCAA admitted to betting on sports. I am sure not all that do admitted to it either since they know it is against NCAA rules.

This same survey had 1.3% of NCAA football players say that they have played poorly in games in an attempt to effect the outcome by point-shaving. That's enough to be 1 or 2 players on every I-A team. I doubt this is happening at every I-A school, so let's say that's enough for 4-8 players at 25% of the I-A schools.

That's way too much. Anyone found guilty of this at UT needs to my punished very severely by the NCAA. I hate to see this all happen at UT and I hate to see any probation/sanctions, but winning isn't everything. The NCAA needs to made a statement here. I believe they failed to do so in the past incidents at Northwestern, Boston College, Tulane, and Arizona State where the schools received a slap on the wrist.

As for the question about recruits......I personally would think it would have some affect, but looking at the point-shaving scandals at other school's in the past it doesn't look like it really affected their recruiting at all.