Attention Coach Brandon Bashers:

[Flipper]

"A fantastic winning foundation"? If he had that he wouldn't be playing 30 freshmen. I think the talent is here to have a winning program. I'm not sure Gregg Brandon will develop that talent, but the talent is there.

Coaches aren't judged by where they came from, they're judged by where they are. Novak is a coach who hasn't been able to get NIU over the hump when it counts. Gregg Brandon hasn't really done that at BGSU either, but he's accomplished more than Novak has.

I think Novak has just about exhausted his "we used to be really terrible" card that has kept him above scrutiny the last couple of years

[Jacobs4Heisman]

No no no -- he had a fantastic winning foundation. This program was nothing but on the rise when he took over. I'm not sure that's even arguable. What he's done is squandered that potential.

And you missed the main point of my argument. Novak has accomplished everything he has with his players and his sytem. Brandon never has. Brandon is falling squarely on his face now that the program is solely his.

As far as "coaches aren't judged by where they come from.", the only defense I ever hear for Brandon's competence is "he won back to back bowl games." If coaches are judged by where they are, I don't see how any sane person could defend Brandon.

[hammb]

Gregg Brandon inherited a strong foundation. Unfortunately he has let that foundation rot to the point that we're playing 30 freshmen and hoping they can become a new foundation.

I disagree entirely with the notion that you don't judge coaches on where they came from. Brandon took over a program that was on the rise with a ton of talent returning. It had a couple excellent recruiting classes to build upon for the future, and most importantly the team had a winning attitude & some swagger. In his first year they reached their peak, but did fall short against a superior team. In the subsequent years that talent has started to leave and it has not been replenished. The winning attitude was gone after his first year, and has not even shown a slight glimpse of returning.

Joe Novak took over a program that was absolutely nothing and built it so that, at it's peak, it was very near where BG was in their peak. Unfortunately neither of them were able to get the job done and actually advance to their goals. Both teams peaked around the same time, and have been downhill ever since. I do think Novak gets a little extra leeway for building the program himself (whereas Brandon inherited his), still he is likely going to be under fire for not keeping the program at that level.

I don't think Novak is a great coach, but he's certainly done more at NIU than Brandon has at BG. On the surface their accomplishments are about the same, but I give a lot more credit to the guy that was headcoach during the turnaround than I do to the guy who jumped on the wave that had already built.

[Flipper]

I didn't miss your point at all...Urban Meyer gets creditied for building a program here when he didn't. That's not a knock on Urban at all, he's obviously a great football coach, but nobody builds a program in two years. He coached up the kids that were here and had one full year of recruiting. That's a good start, but it's not a program.

We had coaching changes after the 2000 and 2002 seasons. That's a recipe for instability. That's why we're playing so many youngsters. The recruiting class from the spring of 2003 blew out on us. We should have about a dozen more Sr's and RS Jr's on the roster but we don't. We haven't seen the attrition rate from the other classes Btrandon recruited that we saw in 2003, so I'm willing to buy into the reasoning that it is an anamoly driven by the short timeframe Brandon had to recruit in.

I am not saying we don't have problems here...last years team played some very uninspired football and this year's team has not progressed as much as I would like to see after 10 games, but I think the talent to win is there. Of course people point to the success Brandon had his first two years, it's just a valid as pointing out what happened last year and this year. I think it's a mistake to exempt him from criticism with that as a defense. I don't think it's a mistake to say he deserves a chance to develop the team because he's proven he can win here. Can he win with the talent he recruits? Can he develop the talent he recruits? I don't know...I know you don't think he can. I think it's premature to discuss sacking a coach who hasn't even had a losing season yet though. I will admit that I want substantial improvement next year or I'll ask for a seat on your bandwagon.

Novak has built NIU into what they are, a program that does well but never quite as well as you think they should. There is no way they should have lost last night. They've had a number of games like that over the past few years. I don't think Novak should escape scrutiny

[Jacobs4Heisman]

Of course people point to the success Brandon had his first two years, it's just a valid as pointing out what happened last year and this year.

Then why say coaches are judged by where they are and not where they come from? It's apples and oranges when discussing Uncle Joe and GB. Of course Novak is going to get more of a leash because of what he did for that program. That's just how it is. I don't think all that much of him as a coach, but you can't deny what he did for that program. He built it from nothing. Maybe he's not the guy to help them take that next step, but the next guy will owe the opportunity solely to Novak.


And I agree with you about Urban. In no way is 3 years enough time to say he built the program. What he did, was establish an attitude, and the foundation for a winning tradition going forward. All Brandon had to do was take the reigns, continue instilling the attitude, and recruit. Of course I make it sound a lot easier than it really is, but that's his job, and that's what we're paying him an awful lot of money to accomplish. It's the end of his fourth year and we're 4-4 against a truly crummy schedule with a 14-point loss to Temple sprinkled in.


I have a simple question that I use to evaluate a coach -- "Is the program in better shape now than it was when he took over?". I'm not talking wins and losses or a single year, but just asking the question at it's highest level. The answer to that in this case is pretty clear in my view.


You, and many others think he deserves more time to try and right the ship, and maybe you're right. All I know is that the resounding theme by the majority of posters here last offseason when this question was brought up, was that this was the watershed year for Brandon. Now I'm starting to hear next year is the year that will make the difference and that he deserves more time. IMO, last year was the year that told the story. This year is just a continuation of a dangerous trend that a lot of people are being very complacent about. This obviously frustrates me.

[Flipper]

You do judge coaches based on where they are...but part of deciding where you are is considering where you should and could be. You have to weigh the record when doing that. If we were 8-2, there wouldn't be a discussion. We're not, so we have to evaluate where we might be if we don't make a change. Looking backward is a part of that process.

I'm not sure you should just say "are you better off than you were four years ago" when determining the fate of our football coach. You have to consider what factors have been at work in getting us to where we are (mediocre at best) and what impact could the coach have had on those factors. I'm swayed enough by the "instability" argument to say Brandon gets another chance.

I think we actually agree more than we disagree...we all know there's some problems here. I think it's premature to pull the plug because there's enough signs of life to argue that Brandon is building a program.

In the case of Novak...he built them from the ashes, but...things have leveled off and I would be hard pressed to argue that Novak is going to be the guy that pushes through that level. I don't think you can justify canning him yet either, but I suspect that if he doesn't make some progress towards a MAC title in the next year or two, you'll see the same kind of drop off at NIU that WMU saw under Gary Darnell.

If we're seeing the same issues next year with guys Brandon has recruited accross the board with 2-3 years in the program, then I'll agree that we should probably look elsewhere.

I tend to think that we're going to be greatly improved next year, although the inconsitency we're seeing this late is a concern.

[Jacobs4Heisman]

I think we actually agree more than we disagree...we all know there's some problems here.

I think so too -- I just like to argue

You just have a little more patience than me. Most people do, and it's usually a good thing.

[Flipper]

I'm not patient...I'm narcotized

[ZuluWarrior]

We are back in the second half of the Blackney era, the entire Ankney era and the pre-Stolz era. Urban Meyer built a program from absolute nothing to national prominence. It's taken two years to kill it.
The 'Jump the Shark' moment for me came when Brandon complained about the 'leak' of the Anthony Turner marijuana citing. Urban would have banished him for the season and not complain about a matter of public record.
Does Brandon deserve another year? He won a couple of bowl games, probably could say yes, but I truly don't think he's the right man for the long term, and I believe next year will be the same as this year.