In my opinion, trading up one frickin' spot is one of the stupidest things anyone could do. Yes, Millen isn't given much credit for being too bright, but Butch Davis was working in the dark room.Flipper wrote:....how dumb do you have to be to be outsmarted by Matt Millen?
Not just riding a motorcycle, popping wheelies and doing dangerous things that even a skilled rider could get hurt doing. Kellen, YOU'RE AN IDIOT! :rant:hammb wrote:When you've got a huge contract explicitly stating you cannot ride a motorcycle, you don't ride a motorcycle.
So I'm "clouded"? Why don't we save the name calling for the ESPN message boards, OK? He blocked, but not all that well. Of course, he was drafted for his receiving abilities and not his blocking abilities. Still, he has a tendancy to throw temper tantrums during games if things aren't going his way. Is this being fiery or being an ahole? Like Herbstreit said the other day, Winslow is the type who will complain if the QB misses him when he is open, even if in the process the QB throws a TD to another player. Is Winslow a good athlete and did he play well in college? Yes. Does that mean he will be a good pro? Not necessarily.hammb wrote:I'll kick the guy when he's down as well, he was totally stupid to do this, but any of you thinking he was overrated as a player before are just clouded. The guy was a phenomenal athlete that could dominate at the TE position. He ran well, blocked, and could catch anything. I also loved his fiery attitude & competitiveness ON THE FIELD.
Unfortunately he's also a moron. He scored something like an 8 on the wonderlick, and I think this recent incident is further proof to his lack of common sense. When you've got a huge contract explicitly stating you cannot ride a motorcycle, you don't ride a motorcycle. I'd bet that these injuries never allow him to be a shadow of the player he was going to become
As for Butch versus Millen, I think Millen's done a pretty good job on draft day. He may have other issues that some of you don't like, but I think he's accumulated a pretty good batch of young talent in Detroit. I'm not 100% sold on Joey, but he's still young. That WR corps should be something special, Kevin Jones is a good back, and I think they've got some good young LBs over there as well. I don't look for 'em in the SB but, I think they're building a nice young core of talent. Besides Butch is a retard. Who the hell would EVER trade up 1 spot, and give up a 2nd rounder to do it!?!? Personally, and this is not hindsight, I really liked both D'Angelo Hall & Roy Williams. I really liked KWII as a prospect as well, but he wasn't enough better than those other two to give up a 2nd rounder for him. Butch is a retard, and it showed yet again in that draft.
BTW, I will defend Butch on one account. Whoever said the, "Take a Hurricane or nothing" comment. Butch did a HORRIBLE job in the draft, that is readily apparent, but this is just flat out not true. In his tenure here we took 3 Hurricanes. Kellen, James Jackson in the 3rd, and Andre King in the 7th. That's not that many when you're talking about a school that's putting a crapload of talent into the NFL. In fact we passed on Ed Reed & Clinton Portis in the '02 draft to take Willie Green. It is true that we took a LOT of players that Butch was familiar with from his college days, either recruiting or playing against. I don't defend Butch on much, but the notion that he rated Miami players higher than others on his draft board just doesn't seem to fit with who he actually drafted.
Of course I could make a pretty strong case that we'd be a helluva lot better of a team if we would've taken MORE Miami players. There are quite a few of 'em who are a helluva lot better than what we've got.
The funny part of that story, TG, is that the Browns had decided to pick Seymour.TG1996 wrote:My bad on the Miami thing... it just SEEMED like he drafted an awful lot of Hurricanes, and even though Gerard Warren played at UF, the stories I heard is that Bootch was wetting himself to draft "Pocket Change" because he liked him all through college, even if there was much better talent at the same need area waiting to be picked (Richard Seymour, I believe)
Yep. That's the story I remember. So so glad that mess is behind us. Though I'm happy for the Winslow accident. Before that, with everything that's gone on the last 4 months, I was starting to worry that it wasn't really the Browns anymore. Things were going along TOO well.hammb wrote:The funny part of that story, TG, is that the Browns had decided to pick Seymour.
The story goes that the Browns personnel staff, scouts, and Butch had all been together working out their draft plans the day before the draft. Before they left they reached a consensus that Seymour was their pick if he was available. They come in the next day and Butch announces that they're taking Warren. He basically overruled every scout & personnel evaluator on the Browns staff himself. Nobody knows what made him make this announcement the next day, but the results speak for themselves. Perhaps he had a "gut feeling" about the guy?
*BLECH*
My judgements are clouded by the fact that he had a much better season in 2002 than 2003. In 2002 he single handedly kept that team undefeated until the NC by taking over games. I think you and I both watch a great amount of football, but I never saw the same player in 03 that I did in 02. It seemed like in 03 he was too caught up with running his mouth and the whole soldier incident. And his arrogance and showboating on the field was at an all time high. He backed it up by scoring one TD all season. (60 receptions)hammb wrote:I still think that anyone who questions his football ability is clouding their judgement with either his character or using hindsight.
I know this is an old issue, but I had been too busy to respond. Think what you will, my judgment was "clouded" for the same reason that kdog's was: Winslow disappeared in way too many games for tha' U in 2003. One good catch against West Virginia and a couple other good games (including against tOSU) does not a season make. It seems to me that there is a big difference between having athletic ability and being a great football player. Winslow has all the tools, I guess, but he is quite stupid, quite selfish, and had too many so-so games in 2003 to merit a high first round pick (sorry, Edwards was a 3rd pick, not tha' soldja).hammb wrote:I still think that anyone who questions his football ability is clouding their judgement with either his character or using hindsight.
At the time of the draft his knocks were his personality (too competitive?), and his blocking. He was always a willing blocker, but undersized for an NFL TE, and was giving up a lot of size to those he was trying to block. Even still he gave it 110%. His emotions were a possible problem, but it wasn't thought to be something this dumb. The emotions that everyone talked about were on the field, he had a tendency to get too fired up and then he didn't play as well...they said he needed to control his emotions on the field.
None of the emotional stuff was EVER thought to be serious enough that it hampered his ability as an NFL prospect. It was almost the consensus that he was the best TE prospect to enter the draft. Many felt he was the best overall player in last year's draft period. Even more people said he was the most ready to play in the NFL player.
Winslow didn't go with the 3rd pick overall...he went 6th. Had the Browns NOT traded up to get him (hence picking him 7th) I would've been absolutely thrilled to death and done a little happy dance at the draft party. Even still I loved it until, I saw what we gave up to move one lousy spot. Kellen Winslow was one of the best players in last year's draft. Personally I LOVED his emotion, it was something the Browns were sorely lacking in. I absolutely DON'T think for a second that he's a selfish player...I think he's an ultracompetitive player that wants to WIN, badly. He's the type that I could see complaining if he got 10 catches and a loss more than 2 catches with a win. He was willing to play special teams, and almost blocked a couple punts in the first game last year, before being willing to sacrifice his body on the most dangerous play in football...the onside kick.
I do agree with Warthog, however, that I don't think he fits into the mold that Crennel & Savage are trying to build either. He is not ultra intelligent, he's downright dumb. I find it hard to defend him, because this was a total boneheaded move that could very well cost him MILLIONS.
I just still think that if you take away hindsight the kid was a superstar prospect, and was not overrated on draft day one bit. He was quite worthy of being the #6 pick, probably even higher than that. Unfortunately he's a moron, and that's going to cost him.
