An OSU fans thoughts about BG..thoughts?

[Tech83]

I like this Buckeyes fan... he has the right idea!

Miami of Florida

MUAHAHA! He know's who MU is and who the other one is. Marshall was the exception to the MAC. I think instead of adding Temple's and the like, they should shoot for the stars, and invite teams like Navy(never gonna happen) or other teams!

Band0 - you have the right idea. Adding Army would give the MAC TV/radio in the New York City region, while Navy would give us Baltimore/Washington DC. And their programs can be competitive.

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

iHuntington, West Virginia,
As of the census of 2000, there are 51,475 people, 22,955 households, and 12,235 families residing in the city.

I have to differ greatly on this issue. There is no comparision and it gets down to demographics.

The population of BG is about 29,000 according to State of Ohio estimates.

Marshall football is an event for students, alumni, and every Hilljack with a monster truck. Their fan base is wide-spread. And its program was wildly popular and drew large numbers prior to the plane crash. There is a very nice (hate to use that word) documentary about the Marshall football program that runs on PBS on occasion. Documents the program and its growth very well. It has HUGE local support and always has.

How many D-1a football programs are in West Virgina? I can think of two..... Marshall and West Virgina. I have conducted business in West Virgina..... they are mad about Marshall football. It's a sickness.... I would met professional people and when they found out I was a BG/Miami grad they would go nuts. And they did not even go to school there. The same sickness we see with Ohio State football.... never went there, but they are fans.

How many D-1a football schools are in Ohio? Cincinnati, Miami, BG, Toledo, OSUcks, Kent, Akron, The Ohio University. Am I missing any? Compared to West Virgina, the Ohio market is deluted.

Maybe so, but Waste Vagina doesn't have any quality HS proggies either. Ohio puts out tons of D-IA talent. And not all that talent ends up at OSU, Michigan, Penn State and the like. Big Ben anyone? I maybe don't quite follow your tone, but you seem to be saying that making Saturdays THE event is something of a problem? You call it a "sickness" and such. You may not like it, but rabid fans drive the game, and THAT's exactly why this topic - college football in general - is the subject of so many message boards and such. All year long. It's good to be a little crazy about your team, whoever it is. I get sick of Oklahoma fans, and USC fans are driving me nuts these days as well. Miami fans are ridiculous to talk to ... you guys feel that way about a lot of OSU fans, from what I understand. fact is, though, that rabidness converts to butts in the seats, which converts in to better facilities, which converts to better recruits etc., etc., etc..

Also think about the other programs being mentioned BYU and Boise... Again, what other D-1a product is in their geographical area.

There is some sort of opinion being expressed here that you can only get players if you fill the stadium..... I don't buy that as a wholesale theory. Many kids want to play all four years and not ride the pine for 2-3 years like at OSU or a larger program. They chose to go to BG, Miami, Toledo.

The program will grow based on sucesss and quality facilities, not filled stadiums. That comes after years of sucess. But we are not going to get locals in Toledo to switch to BG football.....However, we might all be surprised at the number of Toledo hockey fans we possibly attract. Then again, there are only three D-1a hockey programs in the state.

I am no trying to poo-poo marketing, that needs to happen, but lets assume there are only so many football fans and that number does not change. (just like soda drinkers.... no amount of advertising will create new soda drinkers...only a certain percentage of the population drinks soda on a regular basis......there are just brand jumpers) You will not get a Toledo fan or alumni to switch to BG or vica versa.... You won't get an OSU fan to switch to Ohio University.... and the fan base for most of the schools, other than OSU will be locals and alumni. The market is somewhat static.....

Having said that, I think you might be able to grow football fans through school (alumni) allegance (yes I know I just contradicted myself).... but that takes getting students in the Doyt. They might not be interested in football as much as the atmoshere of event.....which means in 5-10 years they will return with their spouses and families. And the staduim starts to fill. Hopefully they actually become football fans.

I disagree. You don't target the one who cannot be converted. You target the kids - you make kids WANT to go to BG, and not "settle for it" (which you seem to suggest by your contention that a lot of guys will go to BG instead of riding the pine at OSU.)

To an outsider this "we're too close to Toledo" business sounds like a makeshift excuse. Does Toledo complain they're too close to BG? If they don't, why not? You should make it so they bitch about it, not the other way around. As I allueded earlier, Toledo isn't the only thing around. If you can't make inroads to the north, dominate the immediate South, West and East.

I agree that success breeds success. In that regard, I think BG - and the MAC generally (at least the top part of it) - are moving inthe right direction. Midwest football is awesome. The West and South may be more flashy, but Midwest Football, with it's focus on Defense and the running game is, in my view, the best brand of ball out there. Defense, gentlemen, wins championships. And that's what we breed he in Ohio - Defensive studs. There are enough quality guys to go around, especially with schollie limits - and even more so if the ridiculous Graduation guidelines get put in place (It's not germane to this discussion really, but my feeling on the Grad. guidelines is it's based on a faulty premise and in the end simply punishes HS seniors who are on the back side of getting a D-I schollie.)

[Tech83]

Maybe so, but Waste Vagina doesn't have any quality HS proggies either. Ohio puts out tons of D-IA talent. And not all that talent ends up at OSU, Michigan, Penn State and the like. Big Ben anyone? I maybe don't quite follow your tone, but you seem to be saying that making Saturdays THE event is something of a problem? You call it a "sickness" and such. You may not like it, but rabid fans drive the game, and THAT's exactly why this topic - college football in general - is the subject of so many message boards and such. All year long. It's good to be a little crazy about your team, whoever it is. I get sick of Oklahoma fans, and USC fans are driving me nuts these days as well. Miami fans are ridiculous to talk to ... you guys feel that way about a lot of OSU fans, from what I understand. fact is, though, that rabidness converts to butts in the seats, which converts in to better facilities, which converts to better recruits etc., etc., etc..

You're reading too much into my comments.... Glad your rabid for your team. My point is that Marshall (and OSU) have a fan base that spread well past Alumni and students. Most schools don't have that sort of following. The sickness I was joking about was how rabid Marshall fans are even though they have no attachment to the school other then they are fans of the football team.....

I disagree. You don't target the one who cannot be converted. You target the kids - you make kids WANT to go to BG, and not "settle for it" (which you seem to suggest by your contention that a lot of guys will go to BG instead of riding the pine at OSU.)

You seem to have the delusion that everyone wants to go to OSU and/or play for OSU. That is just my point.... there are lots of players that would prefer to come to a quality program like Miami or BG and start playing sooner. Those schools are their first choice..... I don't have to reference Big Ben..... Think Brian McClure (there is a name for BG fans to remember), Josh Harris, Ryne Robinson, Omar Jacobs.......

To an outsider this "we're too close to Toledo" business sounds like a makeshift excuse. Does Toledo complain they're too close to BG? If they don't, why not? You should make it so they bitch about it, not the other way around. As I allueded earlier, Toledo isn't the only thing around. If you can't make inroads to the north, dominate the immediate South, West and East.

Lack of knowledge on your part (no flame intended), but Toledo has a non-alumni following and it is THE rivalery between the two school. You would be hard pressed to find a BG fan in Toledo or one to admit it. And it is a demographic issue. Think what would happen if Ann Arbor was 20 miles from OSU. Two great programs in the same conference sitting in each others backyard.

..... Midwest Football, with it's focus on Defense and the running game is, in my view, the best brand of ball out there. Defense, gentlemen, wins championships. And that's what we breed he in Ohio - Defensive studs.

I glad you mentioned (sorta) running backs, because in my part of the state (specifically Troy) we grow running backs..... Bob Ferguson (OSU) , Gordon Bell (Michigan - Archie stole his second Heisman from Gordie) and the ever lovable Ryan Brewer (South Carolina) You might remember young Ryan - Mr. Football Ohio 1998... Outback Bowl MVP ...... Good-bye Mr. Cooper!!

Don't let me forget Randy Walker who was in the Troy backfield and a classmate of Gordon Bell. Randy, of course played at Miami, coached at Miami and is now Head Coach at Northwestern. There were 8 DIV 1 scholies on that 1970-1974 Troy team (39-1 over a four year period and before there was a high school tournament and they played in the WOL and were the smallest school)

An interesting aside to all this..... I had a client meeting and we got to talking about the Horseshoe and the PBS documentary on its design and construction. I think there may be a lack of credit given to the group of men who saw into the future in those early years of OSU football. The construction of that stadium at that time, the public support outside of the University to build the stadium, and the soon to follow football star Chic Harley made OSU footbal what it is today.

I am not sure that the stars can line up like that for another school or at least it will take some time. I think some of the MAC schools will have their chances with all the facility upgrades and the quality players coming out of those programs (such as Big Ben).

[FalconKing]

Lack of knowledge on your part (no flame intended), but Toledo has a non-alumni following and it is THE rivalery between the two school. You would be hard pressed to find a BG fan in Toledo or one to admit it.

To be honest, having lived in Toledo for 23 years, they really do not have much of a non-alumni base and what they do have is not much larger than BGs. I know you are all going to hate it when I say this, but almost everyone is a non-alumni OSU or Michigan fan.

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

"You seem to have the delusion that everyone wants to go to OSU and/or play for OSU. That is just my point.... there are lots of players that would prefer to come to a quality program like Miami or BG and start playing sooner. Those schools are their first choice..... I don't have to reference Big Ben..... Think Brian McClure (there is a name for BG fans to remember), Josh Harris, Ryne Robinson, Omar Jacobs....... "

What? How did you take from my post that I think everyone wants to go to OSU? Fact is, Ohio State is considered by recruits as a "traditional power" and BG is not. Thus, no one "Settles" on Ohio State, whereas a kid who maybe had his heart set on Michigan, but didn't get an offer ends up saying, well, BG is good enough. I don' t mean to sounds like I'm flaming, but I dont think I"ve done anything in this tread to suggest I fit the stereotype OSU fan you accuse me of. Plainly, if everyone wanted to go to OSU Michigan would not be able to get any Ohio kids. Nor would Penn State, etc....


"Lack of knowledge on your part (no flame intended), but Toledo has a non-alumni following and it is THE rivalery between the two school. You would be hard pressed to find a BG fan in Toledo or one to admit it. And it is a demographic issue. Think what would happen if Ann Arbor was 20 miles from OSU. Two great programs in the same conference sitting in each others backyard. "

I said very clearly, "TO AN OUTSIDER" You still made no effort to explain to me why BG can't dominate the other directions save for North. Rivalry between schools is awesome, so I don't see how proximity to your rival is bad. Duke v. NC basketball seems to do OK.

Great Ohio Backs - there we agree. It's why Michigan theives Ohio for talent. Here's a little known fact (if you ask a Michigan fan, anyway) All 3 of their Heisman winners are from out of state, two from Ohio
1. Tom Harmon - Indiana
2. Desmond Howard - Ohio
3. Chuckie W - Ohio

Archie has 2 Heismans, of course... Les Harvath, Hop Cassidy.... Ohio has a great tradition of producing talent. BG and every other Ohio school should be proud of that, and should capitalize.

[Tech83]

What? How did you take from my post that I think everyone wants to go to OSU? Fact is, Ohio State is considered by recruits as a "traditional power" and BG is not. Thus, no one "Settles" on Ohio State, whereas a kid who maybe had his heart set on Michigan, but didn't get an offer ends up saying, well, BG is good enough. I don' t mean to sounds like I'm flaming, but I dont think I"ve done anything in this tread to suggest I fit the stereotype OSU fan you accuse me of. Plainly, if everyone wanted to go to OSU Michigan would not be able to get any Ohio kids. Nor would Penn State, etc....

Never suggested you are a "Stereotypical" Buckeyes fan.... Calm, down, breath slowly..... I think we are agree on lots of points.

Concerning whether a player settles on OSU verse another school.. that's is your opinion and we have no statisical data to prove either way. And after a players gets to their school.... it was their first choice.

I have a friend who visited mostly Big Ten schools - officially. 20 years after the fact, he calls himself a 'tweener" or thats the hole all the scouts put him in. All the smaller schools thought he would play Big Ten, all the Big Ten schools thought he would sign a full ride to a MAC school (who knows why). Anyway - he gets on full ride offer from Kent and walked away from it. Enrolled at Miami and walked on and eventually he had a full ride. Most of his teammates, wanted to play at Miami... there was no "settling" in fact one of his teammates who could have went anywhere (ALL-MAC player - and one huge dude) only had eyes for Miami..... and has never let since graduation and still part of the program.

I said very clearly, "TO AN OUTSIDER" You still made no effort to explain to me why BG can't dominate the other directions save for North. Rivalry between schools is awesome, so I don't see how proximity to your rival is bad. Duke v. NC basketball seems to do OK.

For the outsider .... there is not a lot of population south of BG.... lots of farm land until you get around Dayton. Then your in Miami Country and UD Basketball. Concerning Duke v. NC basketball... until recently, there were no professional sports in the Carolinas. What I always noticed during my business trips to Charlette was the love of College Basketball and football. Again, luck is on their side as folks only had college sports to fill their needs until recently. (Titans, Panthers, Hornets/whatever the new Bball teams name is...)

Great Ohio Backs - there we agree. It's why Michigan theives Ohio for talent. Here's a little known fact (if you ask a Michigan fan, anyway) All 3 of their Heisman winners are from out of state, two from Ohio
1. Tom Harmon - Indiana
2. Desmond Howard - Ohio
3. Chuckie W - Ohio

Archie has 2 Heismans, of course... Les Harvath, Hop Cassidy.... Ohio has a great tradition of producing talent. BG and every other Ohio school should be proud of that, and should capitalize.

Again - being originally from Troy, where football is King, you don't have to sell me on the quality of Ohio Prep Football... and maybe that's why we have 8 DIV - 1a college football programs. Most of the colleges have had football for nearly 100 years.

It kills me when the national media talks at nauseum about Texas football. Troy built Memorial stadium in 1949. There were less than 9,000 people in town at the time. The stadium holds 10,000. It is packed every Friday night and needs to expand. What is the oldest high school rivalery in the state of Ohio and fifth in the country,,,, Troy v Piqua.

Bucky.....Keep an eye on Troy's Todd Denlinger

http://ohiostatebuckeyes.collegesports. ... odd00.html

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

With respect to the "setteling" issue, I follow recruiting pretty closely - in no way am I an insider, but I keep up to speed - so I am aware of what any particular kid might say at the begining v. what he says at the end. There was a RB out of Fla, Dennis Kennedy is his name, wanted OSU badly. Got in, got screwed (and yes, he did get screwed by OSU) and "settled" for Kent State... it may have been Akron, it escapes me at the moment. My point is, it happens. I use this example not because I think every kid wants to go to OSU, but only because I follow OSU recruiting much more closely than any other school, thus it is my dataset.

Denlinger is gonna be a stud, no question about it. Looking forward to watching him for the next (hopefully) 4 years.

For the record, I wasn't trying to convince you about Ohio HS prowess more to just boast about it with ya.

I don't quite get your point regarding pro sports around the North Carolina area. You agree that until recently there was nothing but a love for Basketball (and football, but I think it's clear Basketball is king on Tabacco Road). We just agreed that Ohio loves football, so to me, it's apples to apples - the pro sports thing I don't quite get because the nearest pro teams are in either Cleveland or Detroit, so in my view with the popularity of football, and there being no competition in the local area supports that BG could market better.

Again, to me, it seems you've ceeded to much to Toledo. Sounds like BG is on the defensive and that Toledo is some kind of football monolith. I say turn it around, make the Rockets say, "We can't compete because BG is too close." (On the other hand I don't frequent Toledo boards, if there are any, so they may very well complain too.) I think you're discounting the surrounding area too much as well. I am fully aware that it is all farm land etc., but I have no evidence that farmers don't like college football. I suspect if you gave Toledo to Toledo and attacked the surrounding area heavily you'd find that the population numbers are close enough so as to be the same.

In short, it just seems to me that a lot of BG fans are pre-occupied with making excuses about BG football. I don't mean to call anyone out, it's just an observation. It comes accross as very defeatist. Places like Nebraska fire coaches for going 9 - 3. Ohio State fired Cooper after a run where his club finished #2 in the nation 2 times in 3 years based on his losing to Meshitagain. What do these examples have in common? It wasn't good enough for the fans, alumni, etc. Why not? Because they demand more than what they were getting. I suppose Ohio State fans or Nebraska fans could have come up with a host of excuses - "the media hates us" or "It's too hard to recruit against both Michigan and Penn State" or "Oklahoma and Texas are too far ahead of us in terms of offensive schemeing to be able to match up with them." or the like. But, at the end of the day, it's a bunch of crap. You either get the job done or you don't. I say get the job done, yes?

[Germainfitch1]

I think this raises a good question. Why not appeal to the population around us and get the farmers to take a day off, and come down with their family and friends and tailgate before and go to the games. Farmers would be a pretty sturdy audience.

[Tech83]

With respect to the "setteling" issue, I follow recruiting pretty closely - in no way am I an insider, but I keep up to speed - so I am aware of what any particular kid might say at the begining v. what he says at the end. There was a RB out of Fla, Dennis Kennedy is his name, wanted OSU badly. Got in, got screwed (and yes, he did get screwed by OSU) and "settled" for Kent State... it may have been Akron, it escapes me at the moment. My point is, it happens. I use this example not because I think every kid wants to go to OSU, but only because I follow OSU recruiting much more closely than any other school, thus it is my dataset.

Agreed... some kids "settle" but maybe cause they just aren't Miami, BG, or OSU material. Let's face Randy Moss "settled" on Marshall. And I think you agree there are kids that go to a BG or Miami as their first choice.

For the record, I wasn't trying to convince you about Ohio HS prowess more to just boast about it with ya.

No convincing needed... this is a lovefest about Ohio prep football.

I don't quite get your point regarding pro sports around the North Carolina area. You agree that until recently there was nothing but a love for Basketball (and football, but I think it's clear Basketball is king on Tabacco Road). We just agreed that Ohio loves football, so to me, it's apples to apples - the pro sports thing I don't quite get because the nearest pro teams are in either Cleveland or Detroit, so in my view with the popularity of football, and there being no competition in the local area supports that BG could market better.

I think pro sports compete for the entertainment dollar with college sports and that is the point of my statement. So in the Carolinas where there were not a lot of pro sports, sports fans gravatated to college sports and those school have a strong fan base now due to the lack of competition from pro sports during the early days. Maybe you don't agree... just my thoughts on the matter.

Again, to me, it seems you've ceeded to much to Toledo. Sounds like BG is on the defensive and that Toledo is some kind of football monolith. I say turn it around, make the Rockets say, "We can't compete because BG is too close." (On the other hand I don't frequent Toledo boards, if there are any, so they may very well complain too.) I think you're discounting the surrounding area too much as well. I am fully aware that it is all farm land etc., but I have no evidence that farmers don't like college football. I suspect if you gave Toledo to Toledo and attacked the surrounding area heavily you'd find that the population numbers are close enough so as to be the same.

In short, it just seems to me that a lot of BG fans are pre-occupied with making excuses about BG football. I don't mean to call anyone out, it's just an observation. It comes accross as very defeatist. Places like Nebraska fire coaches for going 9 - 3. Ohio State fired Cooper after a run where his club finished #2 in the nation 2 times in 3 years based on his losing to Meshitagain. What do these examples have in common? It wasn't good enough for the fans, alumni, etc. Why not? Because they demand more than what they were getting. I suppose Ohio State fans or Nebraska fans could have come up with a host of excuses - "the media hates us" or "It's too hard to recruit against both Michigan and Penn State" or "Oklahoma and Texas are too far ahead of us in terms of offensive schemeing to be able to match up with them." or the like. But, at the end of the day, it's a bunch of crap. You either get the job done or you don't. I say get the job done, yes?

I think you are missing my point. It is demographics as far as getting a fan base for the smaller schools. We are not going to poach a lot of fans out of Toledo and if Ann Arbor was where Marion is, you wouldn't poach fans out of Ann Arbor. This is simple market theory.

Reread what I wrote about the Horseshoe and Chic Harley...... No other program in Ohio or even the country had this vision of college football and a star player to attract fans. The big schools had headline making stars and boosters inside and outside the school to envision the growth of the the sport during that era... Notre Dame/Gipper/Rockney (excuse spellings) to name another. And now more than 80 years later, OSU is still reaping the benefits. I am not making excuses. Personally - I'm more of a hockey fan and have been ticked about the lack of sucess until of late.

The stars may be lined up for OSU again this year to make a run at the National title. Personally, (being a Miami grad also) I am looking for the Redhawks to ruin your season. Which means they have to get the job done as you state. The issue for that game will be Josh Betts. If he forces the ball, we're cooked. Watch for Ryne Robinson and Nande. Nande is incredible to watch play. Amazing. If his teammates trust his skills, Robinson will burn OSU for at least 2 kick-off/punt returns. If memory serves me correctly - he did three at Michigan last year and had two called back for 'Clipping".

We in agreement on alot of things.... except for the issue of demographics. Good luck this season.... I now live in Centerville, home to Hawk and Nugent..... this place is OSU crazy.... makes me want to puke. But both are great players and I am happy to see them having success. A.J. big brother was a QB at Miami for a short time, until Big Ben got there. Miami showed incredible class and waived him to Ohio U and wanted to see him play (there is a player that "settled")

Maybe we are both missing the point, this kids just want to continue playing the game.... it is not about the school.

[MiamiBando]

If they had counted the first one RR returned, we would have won, because after it, you could hear a pin drop as UM was STUNNED.... We were down 17-10 going into the 4th, then we collapsed, as usual, Betts(a very good QB) threw an untimely interception, and that was it, lights out for Mother Miami. I think OSU could be the same way, I don't care if we loose, it will make no difference to OSU and or their fans, we'll get the excuses(Zwick was playing ). so I don't care, just represent Miami well! Prodesse Quam Conspici!

[Jacobs4Heisman]

If they had counted the first one RR returned, we would have won, because after it, you could hear a pin drop as UM was STUNNED.... We were down 17-10 going into the 4th, then we collapsed, as usual, Betts(a very good QB) threw an untimely interception, and that was it, lights out for Mother Miami. I think OSU could be the same way, I don't care if we loose, it will make no difference to OSU and or their fans, we'll get the excuses(Zwick was playing ). so I don't care, just represent Miami well! Prodesse Quam Conspici!

Is there such a thing as a timely interception?

I'll be rooting 100% for miami to win this game. I think OSU will have a good team this year but zwick is pretty terrible. The MAC has to have a better OOC this year than last...or 1987 will eat a bug.

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Tech- I agree we seem to be in agreement about all but the demographics thing. I don't live in BG or Toledo, so it's true I can't fully appreciate the situation. But, as an intellectual excersize, I just don't see Toledo as that big a threat to BG, either the city or the school. To use a pro sports analogy, New York City has more or less always had at least 2 pro baseball teams. And yet, they both do fine. I understand, of course, that NYC is clearly larger in terms of population than the area we're considering in the Toledo BG debate, so it's surely not a 1:1 analysis. Still, football is popular enough in Ohio (as baseball is in the North East and NYC in particular) to support two teams that close.

You say:
The stars may be lined up for OSU again this year to make a run at the National title. Personally, (being a Miami grad also) I am looking for the Redhawks to ruin your season. Which means they have to get the job done as you state. The issue for that game will be Josh Betts. If he forces the ball, we're cooked. Watch for Ryne Robinson and Nande. Nande is incredible to watch play. Amazing. If his teammates trust his skills, Robinson will burn OSU for at least 2 kick-off/punt returns. If memory serves me correctly - he did three at Michigan last year and had two called back for 'Clipping".

I am REALLY excited for this year. Ted Ginn, Santonio Holmes, Anthony Gonzalez are a pretty darn good set of WR. ANd that doens't include guys like Devon Lyons (Top rated PA WR and S coming outta HS last season) and Roy Hall... OSU's running game needs a jolt, for sure. I think Maurice Wells will add a nice spark, though he won't get immediate PT over Antonio Pittman or my favorite choice Erik Haw (Assuming he stops smoking dope) (Next year, with the addition of Chris Wells, we finally get a Mo C calibur back - that is strong and fluid./.. say what you want about Mo C, but on the football field in 2002 he was an absolute joy to watch.)

QB will be SMith come Texas, take it to the bank. With him and TGII and Mo Wells in the back field.... well... exciting.

Defense is going to be tight as well. You'll hear a lot about Iowa's LB's, but I'll still take Hawk, Schlegal and Carpenter... plus Mike D'Andrea is still there, and if he can avoid the injury bug is outstanding. AShton Youboty will be tossed around as top DB in the nation next season, I think. He shut Braylon Edwards down when he was on him. Jamario O'Neal *(incoming frosh) will probably play the other corner spot - whcih is concerning. The line should be very good, we've rotated 8 in and out over the years, so while we lost guys like Simon Fraser, we're not putting new faces in there.

Miami has played OSU tough before, and I expect this year's game to be no different. A buddy of mine knows Josh Betts. He (my buddy) is a transfer from Miami to OSU, so he keeps me all up to speed on Miami's talent. They're no joke, but at the end of the day, I think OSU's depth will prevail.

[Tech83]

Tech- I agree we seem to be in agreement about all but the demographics thing. I don't live in BG or Toledo, so it's true I can't fully appreciate the situation. But, as an intellectual excersize, I just don't see Toledo as that big a threat to BG, either the city or the school......... football is popular enough in Ohio (as baseball is in the North East and NYC in particular) to support two teams that close.

I don't think Toledo is a threat to BG success or vica versa... I am thinking more that you are either a Rocket fan or a BG fan and you will support one or the other. Just like you're either a Yankees fan or a Mets fan.

This is where I probably part with my fellow BG fans...... Fans in the stands is important, but I don't think it relates to the overall success of the program. If the program is successful, the stadium is filled. If the stadium does not fill to capacity every game, that does not mean the program is not successful. I don't tie my whole view/opinion of BG's or Miami's success on the number of fans on any given Saturday. We just don't have that kind of following. Would I like to see us have that kind of following... You bet.

OSU could be a bottom feeder team (Such as Penn State has been for the last few years) and people will still come. Not the case at BG.

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

This is where I probably part with my fellow BG fans...... Fans in the stands is important, but I don't think it relates to the overall success of the program. If the program is successful, the stadium is filled. If the stadium does not fill to capacity every game, that does not mean the program is not successful. I don't tie my whole view/opinion of BG's or Miami's success on the number of fans on any given Saturday. We just don't have that kind of following. Would I like to see us have that kind of following... You bet.

OSU could be a bottom feeder team (Such as Penn State has been for the last few years) and people will still come. Not the case at BG.

Aside from marketing the program correctly, I don't see why BG fans wouldn't be as rabid about BG football as Ohio State is about Ohio State football. You - I think it was you - a point about Chic Harley a few posts back, and how someone had the foresight to build a 100,000 seat stadium long before it would be needed. I suppose BG needs their Chic Harley, the guy who electrifies the field for 3 or 4 years. On that the Admin could build. I mean, you gotta start that ball rolling at some time. I suppose in 1922 Ohio State felt like they were taking an enormous risk building such a stadium. They didnt start filling the thing for YEARS after it was built, you know.

I know you guys are high on Pope, but until the rest of the country recognizes, I think you may be in some trouble building around him (in a Harley way) Hell, in todays age, maybe it can't be done that way anymore.

Perhaps a better theory is to study how Bill Snyder turned K-State in to a legitimate force. (See below) Recruiting in Manhattan Kansas aint easy, and before Snyder no one gave a rats behind about K-State football.

Note: Personally, I think Big XII football is vastly overrated, but that's another discussion - and the fact is, KSU went from laughingstock to legitimate. "Force" is probably too strong a word.