2008 game: UT vs. OSU

[rocketfootball]

I'm sure the 49-0 butt kicking that they encountered the last time they played in Columbus has nothing to do with their decision to not want to play them in 2008.

Umm, yeah that is it. And since we lost to Purdue 51-17 back in the early 90's we won't play them again either. Oh wait, but we did play them in 1997 and have a new 2 for 1 deal with them now.

But since we lost to Minnesota 63-21 last year we won't be playing them again. Oh wait, I have heard that we are interested in starting another 2 for 1 deal with Minnesota again in the future.

Gee, there goes that thinking.

[TG1996]

But since we lost to Minnesota 63-21 last year we won't be playing them again. Oh wait, I have heard that we are interested in starting another 2 for 1 deal with Minnesota again in the future.

Is that where that news story about a K-Y jelly shortage in the Twin Cities came from? Whoa.

Count me in the group that gives Big Tom credit for telling OSU to stick it, and whoever said the part about "playing in front of 100,000 fans who will be too drunk to remember and make excuses if OSU loses"... dead on. I'd rather play in front of 2 people behind Ridge Street Elementary than (ready, Grant?) kowtow to OSU "just because they're OSU and we should be honored to be asked into their stadium". Screw that.

Oh, and I'd also like to thank each and every person on this thread that HASN'T written some variation of "tOSU"... that's the most retarded thing since "Life Goes On" left broadcast television.

[rocketfootball]

Rocketfootball:

Did that Toledo fan say how much Ohio State was offering as a guarantee?

I thought $450,000 or so was fairly standard for Ohio State. Seems to me that's a lot more dough than a two-for-one with Purdue would generate, especially when the opportunity cost of playing three games (versus one) is considered.

Could it be that Ohio State is offering less of a guarantee to programs it doesn't particularly want to play?

Another thought, more for the Bowling Green fans: Are we locked down with a 2010 Ohio State game or not? We've talked about it a lot here. Does it appear on OSU's future schedule?

A final thought: I agree that home games need to be taken seriously. Our Wisconsin series is preferable to anything Ohio State is offering. If we would have had to break a deal with Ohio State to get the Wisconsin deal, then we absolutely should have done it. (Some of you will recall we scrapped a deal with Michigan to get the Wisconsin deal, and it was absolutely the right call).

That said, I like playing Ohio State. Eventually, we will win, and we should keep taking cracks at it. If we are going to play a road game with no hope of a return game, than Ohio State should be at the absolute top of our list of teams we want to schedule.

Now, THAT SAID: That doesn't mean Ohio State should be gouging by offering a lousy guarantee. There isn't a program in the country that ought to be able to offer a significantly bigger guarantee than Ohio State... and if other programs *are* offering significantly bigger guarantees, than screw Ohio State. Let's play at Oklahoma or whatever and grab the extra cash.

I know that OSU offered us a certain payout and we said we wanted the kind of payout they gave to San diego State, who is coming to Columbus this fall, and OSU didn't like that response and denied a payout like that.


As for what UT could get if we have a home game with 30K in attendance. At $20 per ticket that would be $400,000 assuming that only 20K of that were people that bought tickets....10K being students or comp tickets. Then you consider parking fees, and concession fees which more than pay for the expenses involved in having people do the concessions, having people pickup the money at parking areas, and having seat attendents. At worst case I would say Toledo has to make at least $400,000 and probably more like $450,000 revenue on a home game when we get near 30K in attendance.

Now if we get let's say a $450,000 payout from OSU, which I believe is higher than they offered us, and you subtract expenses for travelling there which include gas for the buses and meals and other miscellaneous expenses for the players and coaches I can't see where Toledo would get more than $400,000 tops and probably something in the $300,000 range. And like I said, I have very good reason to believe that $450,000 is higher than they offered Toledo.

[Flipper]

Screw OSU...if I had a chance to play a Purdue on a two for one instead of playing a one off in the "shoe", I'd be on that two for one like a fat kid on jam sandwich.

[JoeFalcon]

The reactions of O'Brien and Amstutz are classic.

How dare you expect us to play a tough, legitimate OOC opponent? We're Toledo!

So what if other MAC schools are salivating to beat the Buckeyes and BG came closer than any of them in 2003...with Miami to come and Akron and Kent having given it the ole college try in recent years?

We don't need no stinking competition when the entire pre-BG season essentially comes down to one game vs. NIU every year.

Remember the article about C Edmund Massey where he said BG's challenging schedule, with teams like Ohio State and Oklahoma, was one of the reasons he committed? I like players that crave competition.

[mk455]

ooookay, now you're crazy. if you even begin to THINK that the atmosphere in your stadium would be better than the atmosphere in a 100,000+ stadium where your team is playing one of the top teams in the nation, with a chance to beat them in their own house, then you're out of your mind. dont get me wrong, i love the energy that comes from the doyt when bg is playing, but even though we were away when we played osu, ive never had so much adrenaline (sp?) pumping.

No he is not crazy at all. The size of your stadium has almost nothing to do with how great the atmosphere is. I have seen games at OSU, Michigan, Penn St, Notre Dame, Tenn. You know where the best atmosphere for a game I have ever seen is? At NIU in 2002 when BG played them. I know it is not like that all the time but it beat my experineces of Michigan vs Washington (when the huskies were a top 10 team), Notre Dame vs, USC, Notre Dame Vs Boston College, Penn St. vs Iowa. That Michigan/Washington game was probably the second best game I have ever seen with Michigan winning 29-27 on a last second FG, still the atmosphere was not that great. Size does not always imply intensity.

i was saying bg vs. osu at osu... not just osu in general. i know the size of a crowd isnt the only thing that adds to the atmosphere... but to see your own team in a place like that, is a big boost.

[rocketfootball]

The reactions of O'Brien and Amstutz are classic.

How dare you expect us to play a tough, legitimate OOC opponent? We're Toledo!

So what if other MAC schools are salivating to beat the Buckeyes and BG came closer than any of them in 2003...with Miami to come and Akron and Kent having given it the ole college try in recent years?

We don't need no stinking competition when the entire pre-BG season essentially comes down to one game vs. NIU every year.

Remember the article about C Edmund Massey where he said BG's challenging schedule, with teams like Ohio State and Oklahoma, was one of the reasons he committed? I like players that crave competition.

I am glad you are able to get recruits because of who you play. Toledo gets recruits based on schedule too. A kid from New Jersey said one thing he liked about Toledo was that we were on national TV 7 times last year and he was told we play Fresno State on national TV this year. He signed with us in February.

Toledo doesn't back away from scheduling good teams, despite what you might think. Toledo has always scheduled good teams. We were the first MAC school to host a Big Ten team. We have defeated good teams and played well against good teams too. Back in the late 80's we played at Miami Fl and only lost 24-14. This was the year Miami went undefeated and won the national championship. They were ranked #1 when we played them. We have played three teams that were ranked #1 in the nation at the time we played them in the last 20 years.......Miami Fl, Ohio State, and Washington. We played at Penn State in 2000, and even though they were not really good that year the game was scheduled a few years before when PSU was battling Michigan and OSU for the Big Ten title. We hosted and beat Pittsburgh in 2003. They came into the game ranked #9 in the country. We agreed in the offseason to a 2 game deal with Fresno State, and to play them at FSU this fall when we knew how good they are and how much they have coming back.

Don't give me this crap about UT not wanting to play good opponents.

[rocketfootball]

For what it's worth, Nick from Vandelaysports.com had this to say about the UT/OSU game stuff:

OSU wants to pay Toledo the same amount they gave in 1998 which was $375K - UT wants what was paid to San Diego State, which was $525K. To date, there is no agreement.

[JoeFalcon]

rocketfootball,

If the best argument you can give on your schedule is a losing Penn State team in 2000, a mediocre Pitt team in 2003 and a third place WAC team (Fresno State, third behind Boise and UTEP in 2004) this year you've pretty much made my argument for me.

The fact is UT simply doesn't schedule the upper-tier teams nationally the way BG and most of the MAC does. You've had great success in conference, but the OOC scheduling philosohpy is timid at best.

[transfer2BGSU]

First I had to admit that TG1996 was correct (can't remember what it was about, but he was). Now I'm siding with rockettefootball and agreeing with him about UT not scheduling Ohio's Second-Rate University.

If TU can get decent deals for teams to pay return visits to the glass bowl, then they should continue to do what they're doing. I'd love to have some of those teams come play at our nice little high school field (where we continually water the visitors sidelines).

Look at how much money osu makes on a football Saturday - over $5,000,000. And they're offering TU only $375,000? I think we got paid $450,000 a few years ago. Not even 10% of what they made.

Nope - gotta' give Toledo Tom some credit there.

[Schadenfreude]

As for what UT could get if we have a home game with 30K in attendance. At $20 per ticket that would be $400,000 assuming that only 20K of that were people that bought tickets....10K being students or comp tickets. Then you consider parking fees, and concession fees which more than pay for the expenses involved in having people do the concessions, having people pickup the money at parking areas, and having seat attendents. At worst case I would say Toledo has to make at least $400,000 and probably more like $450,000 revenue on a home game when we get near 30K in attendance.

Now if we get let's say a $450,000 payout from OSU, which I believe is higher than they offered us, and you subtract expenses for travelling there which include gas for the buses and meals and other miscellaneous expenses for the players and coaches I can't see where Toledo would get more than $400,000 tops and probably something in the $300,000 range. And like I said, I have very good reason to believe that $450,000 is higher than they offered Toledo.

Okay, but to get that big day at the Glass Bowl with $400,000 in gross (or let's assume net, to be generous) revenue, you probably have to two games at Purdue, one of which will generate no guarantee (because UT doesn't have to offer a guarantee for the Glass Bowl game). On the third game, Purdue will offer, what, $200,000? Let's assume that. And don't forget to subtract travel expenses -- maybe $50,000 per game at West Lafayette.

So, for three games, Toledo might be netting $166,000 per game -- versus netting maybe $300,000 for playing once at Ohio State, with an opportunity to schedule two other games. If you can get more than $100,000 each for those other games, then Toledo is ahead financially.

The opportunity to bring Purdue to your stadium is worth something intangible. It makes your fans happy, it gives the program a better shot at a high profile win, etc.

But, strictly in terms of dollars and cents, the single game at OSU looks to me like it might be better... depending, of course, on how much they offered.

[Schadenfreude]

For what it's worth, Nick from Vandelaysports.com had this to say about the UT/OSU game stuff:

OSU wants to pay Toledo the same amount they gave in 1998 which was $375K - UT wants what was paid to San Diego State, which was $525K. To date, there is no agreement.

I trust Nick.

(Although, I think the deal was a little more complex than this; the last time the Aztecs played at Ohio Stadium, I thought it was originally planned at Qualcomm and moved back to Ohio in the interest of making more money. Couldn't this forthcoming game may be part of the same overall agreement, and not easily tied down to a figure like $525,000?).

Oklahoma paid Bowling Green $500,000 last year. I guess, on the surface, I'd be tempted to tell Ohio State to take a hike if they only offered $375,000 and play Oklahoma, even though I believe it is important for Bowling Green to play Ohio State every few years.

Two more thoughts:

San Diego State has to figure out a flight to Columbus, whereas all any of us MAC schools need to do is get a few buses. That could eat up $100,000 for San Diego State right there. (Or for Bowling Green, in, hypothetically, choosing to play Oklahoma instead of Ohio State for less)

On the other hand, from Ohio State's point of view, it's absurd to think it's worth spending $125,000 more just to fly San Diego State across the country.

[Schadenfreude]

The fact is UT simply doesn't schedule the upper-tier teams nationally the way BG and most of the MAC does. You've had great success in conference, but the OOC scheduling philosohpy is timid at best.

Is it that UT is timid?

Or is that they gross so much more from home games that they don't have to put themselves in the position of getting their asses kicked on the road (a la Ball State, Akron, etc.)?

I hate to defend UT, but calling their scheduling timid doesn't strike me as fair.

[rocketfootball]

rocketfootball,

If the best argument you can give on your schedule is a losing Penn State team in 2000, a mediocre Pitt team in 2003 and a third place WAC team (Fresno State, third behind Boise and UTEP in 2004) this year you've pretty much made my argument for me.

The fact is UT simply doesn't schedule the upper-tier teams nationally the way BG and most of the MAC does. You've had great success in conference, but the OOC scheduling philosohpy is timid at best.

Why are you so clueless? I said that when the Penn State game was scheduled they were good. No one knew they would falter. Before the 2000 season when we played PSU, they had the following records:

1999 10-3
1998 9-3
1997 9-3
1996 11-2
1995 9-3
1994 12-0
1993 10-2

Don't be stupid and tell me that everyone knew PSU would only be 5-7 in 2000. And if you watched the game, we DOMINATED them! Only USC beat them worse than Toledo did in 2000.


As for Pittsburgh they were undefeated and ranked 9th in the country before we beat them in 2003. They lost to Notre Dame by 6 points, West Virginia, Miami FL, and Virginia in 2003. They beat Virginia Tech, Texas A&M, Boston College, and they beat Syracuse by 20 points. Are you telling me that BG would have beat them down in 2003? They had Rod Rutherford and Larry Fitzgerald that year.

In 1997 Toledo hosted and beat Purdue 36-22. Purdue went 9-3, going 6-2 in the Big Ten and finishing in 3rd place. Their other losses were to Iowa and a 9-3 Penn State team. They beat Oklahoma State 33-20 in the Alamo Bowl.

That Fresno State team you talk about beat Kansas State and Washington on the road and beat Virginia in their bowl game. They return pretty much everyone and our preseason ranked in many polls.


Syracuse is another example of a school that was good when the deal was signed, but seemed to falter. Syracuse had three straight 9 win seasons and Donovan McNabb when the deal for a 2 for 1 with Toledo was signed in 1997. In 1998 Syracuse won 8 games.


In the past Toledo has played games against Miami Fl, Florida State, Ohio State, and Washington. Three of them were ranked #1 at the time we played and the other was #5. Those were all 1 game deals and Toledo hasn't done much of that lately because we have been so successful with getting 2 for 1 deals with good programs.

[rocketfootball]

As for what UT could get if we have a home game with 30K in attendance. At $20 per ticket that would be $400,000 assuming that only 20K of that were people that bought tickets....10K being students or comp tickets. Then you consider parking fees, and concession fees which more than pay for the expenses involved in having people do the concessions, having people pickup the money at parking areas, and having seat attendents. At worst case I would say Toledo has to make at least $400,000 and probably more like $450,000 revenue on a home game when we get near 30K in attendance.

Now if we get let's say a $450,000 payout from OSU, which I believe is higher than they offered us, and you subtract expenses for travelling there which include gas for the buses and meals and other miscellaneous expenses for the players and coaches I can't see where Toledo would get more than $400,000 tops and probably something in the $300,000 range. And like I said, I have very good reason to believe that $450,000 is higher than they offered Toledo.

Okay, but to get that big day at the Glass Bowl with $400,000 in gross (or let's assume net, to be generous) revenue, you probably have to two games at Purdue, one of which will generate no guarantee (because UT doesn't have to offer a guarantee for the Glass Bowl game). On the third game, Purdue will offer, what, $200,000? Let's assume that. And don't forget to subtract travel expenses -- maybe $50,000 per game at West Lafayette.

So, for three games, Toledo might be netting $166,000 per game -- versus netting maybe $300,000 for playing once at Ohio State, with an opportunity to schedule two other games. If you can get more than $100,000 each for those other games, then Toledo is ahead financially.

The opportunity to bring Purdue to your stadium is worth something intangible. It makes your fans happy, it gives the program a better shot at a high profile win, etc.

But, strictly in terms of dollars and cents, the single game at OSU looks to me like it might be better... depending, of course, on how much they offered.

Schade, I wasn't talking about the Purdue deal. Heck, in 2001 we had I-AA Weber State at the Glass Bowl for a one game deal and had over 31K in attendance. When Purdue comes to the Glass Bowl in 2007 I believe it is. I would expect close to 35K, not 30K.