Toledo to the Big East?

[NWLB]

I think the Big East is trying to figure out if it going to get better or worse. To start with, the league took a dive with the teams they lost. The teams they have added aren't bad, but they aren't as good as what left. (the same is true of CUSA) They could add a few more teams, they top of the conference could improve, but the end result is a pretender among the other BCS conferences.

CUSA will fold, maybe sooner than later. And no matter what anybody says, Toledo isn't a really attractive city, University, or overall athletics program for the Big East.

And what has already been said is correct, UT has an AD bucking for a better job. Much like their president who is hoping to merge with MUO so he can bow-out looking as if he fixed UT's problems. UT has a reputation in higher education that will sting in the nose of a few BE presidents. Do they want to invite a school in an enrollment free-fall, hurting for money, which can't totally pack its own stadium in the middle of a metro area of over 600,000 and over 65% of its own alumni base?

[Rightupinthere]

I think the Big East is trying to figure out if it going to get better or worse. To start with, the league took a dive with the teams they lost. The teams they have added aren't bad, but they aren't as good as what left. (the same is true of CUSA) They could add a few more teams, they top of the conference could improve, but the end result is a pretender among the other BCS conferences.

CUSA will fold, maybe sooner than later. And no matter what anybody says, Toledo isn't a really attractive city, University, or overall athletics program for the Big East.

And what has already been said is correct, UT has an AD bucking for a better job. Much like their president who is hoping to merge with MUO so he can bow-out looking as if he fixed UT's problems. UT has a reputation in higher education that will sting in the nose of a few BE presidents. Do they want to invite a school in an enrollment free-fall, hurting for money, which can't totally pack its own stadium in the middle of a metro area of over 600,000 and over 65% of its own alumni base?

All solid point to ponder, Nathan, but I'm not going to spend too much time on it. It's UT. I hope they stay in the MAC because I believe that the MAC will just get stronger (as it has been for the past 10-15 years.) A stronger MAC and a stable conference will eventually reap more dividends for the member schools.

65% of alumni are still within the Toledo area? I don't doubt your word, I just find it a bit of a rich percentage. Interesting to say the very least.

[Touchdown Rockets]

I think the Big East is trying to figure out if it going to get better or worse. To start with, the league took a dive with the teams they lost. The teams they have added aren't bad, but they aren't as good as what left. (the same is true of CUSA) They could add a few more teams, they top of the conference could improve, but the end result is a pretender among the other BCS conferences.

CUSA will fold, maybe sooner than later. And no matter what anybody says, Toledo isn't a really attractive city, University, or overall athletics program for the Big East.

And what has already been said is correct, UT has an AD bucking for a better job. Much like their president who is hoping to merge with MUO so he can bow-out looking as if he fixed UT's problems. UT has a reputation in higher education that will sting in the nose of a few BE presidents. Do they want to invite a school in an enrollment free-fall, hurting for money, which can't totally pack its own stadium in the middle of a metro area of over 600,000 and over 65% of its own alumni base?

To hear it put that way, one would be shocked if the Big East even gives UT a second consideration. UT sounds like it really sucks. How long do you see until the MAC kicks that crappy school out of its conference?

[BGGrad01]

I think the Big East is trying to figure out if it going to get better or worse. To start with, the league took a dive with the teams they lost. The teams they have added aren't bad, but they aren't as good as what left. (the same is true of CUSA) They could add a few more teams, they top of the conference could improve, but the end result is a pretender among the other BCS conferences.

CUSA will fold, maybe sooner than later. And no matter what anybody says, Toledo isn't a really attractive city, University, or overall athletics program for the Big East.

And what has already been said is correct, UT has an AD bucking for a better job. Much like their president who is hoping to merge with MUO so he can bow-out looking as if he fixed UT's problems. UT has a reputation in higher education that will sting in the nose of a few BE presidents. Do they want to invite a school in an enrollment free-fall, hurting for money, which can't totally pack its own stadium in the middle of a metro area of over 600,000 and over 65% of its own alumni base?

To hear it put that way, one would be shocked if the Big East even gives UT a second consideration. UT sounds like it really sucks. How long do you see until the MAC kicks that crappy school out of its conference?

UT has been living on borrowed time in the MAC since the late 1990's. I wouldn't be surprised to see Rick Chryst ship them out as early as next year.

[rocketfootball]

DESPERATE CALL, since this recruit was thinkg about coming to BG>

This kid may have received a scholarship from BG, like many other schools, but he had narrowed his choices to Toledo and Cincinnati months ago. I am sure whatever Amstutz said to him, which we really don't know because this is what a Pittsburgh reporter says a 18 year old kid says that Amstutz said and it could be taken out of context, was after BG was out of the picture.

[NWLB]

I had heard UT was going to get kicked out and sent to a Pop Warner league, but Amstutz kept walking around the conference meetings yelling "GET INTO MY BELLY" at the kids.

[Schadenfreude]

OSU: Lots of good information in that post, much of which I could verify.

c'mon judith miller! spill it!

Yeah Jayson! Give us more.

[1987alum]

OSU: Lots of good information in that post, much of which I could verify.

c'mon judith miller! spill it!

Yeah Jayson! Give us more.

Schade: Ouch!

[factman]

I've got a secret and I'm not tell'in!!!!! I've got a secret and I'm not tell'in!!

Sounds like Noah hit the keyboard!!

[Redwingtom]

RF and 87 must be sharing beds again

This whole thing is pretty silly. We have two posters 'ing all over the place like there is a double secret iron clad contract signed already but that they can't go public with their knowledge as it may compromise an already known unknown deal. Makes little to no sense, but hey. Enjoy yourselves.

As was said earlier, don't let the door hit you in the arse

[BGSU33]

This post was over on Miami's board. It is very long, but it has some interesting info in it. It talks more about Ohio, Miami and Toledo in relation to the Big East. For those interested, here it is:

Had a chat with one of my Sport Reporter friends again. (The local TV guy)- he laughed and said man do rumors grow.

Here's the basic breakdown he gave me-

1- Big East wants a championship- eventually, but doesn't want to split its football income (this is the football members) with the non-D1 Football members. This is a big big battle of contention in the league. Right now- the BE is really two conferences. A football conference and a basketball conference. There are those he said that consider it three conferences. Men's Football, Men's basketball and then All other sports. All other sports includes women's sports and they already keep those funds separate. Antiquated and probably rife with padded accounting (this my friend said is where the negative numbers get hidden by the conference and how Football members manage to get larger pieces of their TV and Bowl money shares- they tally loses and deduct this from the total income before splits occur with non-football members.)
Any talk that reaches boards or print about dissension is over this accounting practice that keeps the larger slice of the pie for the football members, but splits basketball revenues equally- unless said football programs don't get major bowls and thus they pad the "Other Sports" column with loses and thus recover some extra during BBall season.
He said each school practices different accounting methods, but it all is balanced to rewarding the D1 Football programs.
He wouldn't cite sources, but said other articles done previously on this (football vs basketball vs other sports income) if taken on the whole spell out the entire story. He's been surprised that the NCAA hasn't been involved yet, but they have the magical BCS backing and he said only the SEC has more creative accounting procedures- but there it's done to cheat moneys from their own conference members.
He said investigating that type of trickery in the SEC is a good way to get a one way fishing trip in certain states. He said he'd only report it if someone else broke the story and did the investigation. He suggested that it'd take a reporter with guts or stupidity and belief in their own immortality and importance and that maybe it should be someone no one would really miss- I suggested Giraldo Rivera- we both laughed.

2- Big East understands rivalries are good for $$ it wants more of them for Football especially if Big East should really split along the lines of a Basketball conference- the way funds are disbursed and shared indicates that the conference is already prepared to do this split sometime soon in the future.
IF the BCS should lean towards dumping BE from BCS equation, they will move immediately to expand the football side and create a second basketball conference closely tied to another Division that's in the area. A-10 and MAC were mentioned as homes for departing basketball teams that weren't football members too.
He said that temple leaving BE was a first step in trimming the tree. They loved Temple Basketball, but needed to see how conference reacted to losing a strong BBall program and weak football.
MAC was closely involved in discussions here, behind scenes- what he wasn't sure, but BE officials made more than a few trips to Cleavland during the process- shortly after Rick Chryst announced that Temple would be joining the MAC in two years time.


Old established Rivalries are instant classics and can be packaged for TV.
UC Louisville isn't such a rivalry. Miami-UC is. WVU-Pitt is such a rivalry too. Uconn Syracuse they hope will develop into one in time, but right now, they're just two North Eastern teams.

Depending on whether or not UC went the way of its basketball team would have dictated how UC could have blocked Miami should invite be extended, but as a new member they don't have the pull.
Losing Huggy Bear diminished the value of Cincinnati Basketball big time, if UC makes the NCAA this year and actually wins more than a few games will spell out their pull when changes come about.
He said changes are lining up like dominoes in the BE, they really want to keep their slice of the BCS pie. They also want to re-establish their National Brand and exposure. This means that the BE is willing to move in and try to take a share of Big 10 traditional territory too.
They hope their Brand Name will increase viewership especially if more teams join in with established football and basketball programs should a split occur along the lines of the football-basketball money lines.
This means NW Ohio and even stronger presence in SW Ohio too.
SE Ohio might benefit too.
Yes OU is on the short list too, especially if "Captain Morgan" Solich turns the program.
Pitt-OU-WVU triad is on such backyard brawl they really like to see.
OU beating Pitt showed many that the MAC can compete and beat the BE teams, if played in their stadiums.
Marshall was on the table before- it's off now especially in view of their crummy Bball program and lack of funding in Olympic sports too.
HE said the best way to see if a School was getting ready for such a theoretical move was to see if they had recently upgraded Football and other sports facilities and if there was a second phase laid out already to re-expand facilities above the current listings.

OU and Miami both expanded stadiums with future expansion in mind, both have upgraded Olympic sports and facilities above standards for their own conferences too.

I noted that there was no real indication that plans of a second phase expansion (other than a football practice facility) had been hinted at at Miami. He shrugged and said try looking at all of the artist concept drawings, there might be something there that is considered a "wish list" item or "Second" "third" phase project.
He said he did know OU had such plans on file, but hadn't looked at MU's- there was nothing there that local sports would be interested in. He said if Miami recruited more in Virginia he might look deeper, or if the BE extends a merger with the MAC and joins in one to two new bowl agreements

3- Toronto and Indianapolis Bowls- BE is on the table for both and actively working with MAC on getting them established. BE thinks that having more local bowls (and indoors) has proved to be Good for the MAC (ie MCB). The numbers of fans at the MCB even without local Detroit backing has been phenomenal to say the least, and even outperformed traditional bowls that are now at risk of losing certification.

4- Several Bowls (4 he named off the cuff) are really on Double secret probation already. Hawaii, Silicon Valley, Houston's, and another he mentioned was Independence Bowl especially the Big-12 side of the equation.

5- He said that talks of Bowl Lottery-exchange were being considered in lieu of the new 12 game schedule coming about. I asked about the 6-6 teams being allowed to participate in TIE in Bowls. He did say someone proposed that they should only be eligible if all other teams with better records were taken already. Someone with balls in the SEC actually proposed that a team to be eligible for a "Tie" in bowl should actually have at least a .500 record in its own conferences as well as an overall "Non-losing" record. I asked it that was Vandy and he laughed and said maybe. Guess there's a story there he doesn't want to break just yet.
More will come out this Spring he said after the traditional bowl season is over and the Basketball season gets ready for March Madness. That's when money projections, losses and sharing are prepared for the next year. This is when schools start to get "uppity" and start to look for greener pastures.

6- If Toronto bowl happens he said that Indianapolis might get a probationary bowl too as a short term experiment to replace a failing bowl in the south west or far far west. This means that the WAC and Big 12 would exchange a bowl with an eastern or Midwestern conference that usually went west in order to cut costs and travel expenses for fans and making a bowl more localized, and thus better for fans in area to be involved with.
The model for the Local bowl was set and established with the MCB and Big Ten/BE/CUSA tie ins.
MCB has been praying for a MSU or UM vs Toledo/NIU bowl for years. He said should that happen the MCB would double its fan butts in seat numbers and its local TV ratings would skyrocket.
He said that a larger pay-out is needed and he suggested that ESPN is pushing for one too- maybe via revenue sharing with it's other bowls.
GMAC and MCB viewership numbers as far as he remembered were always good. The MAC brand is now national and folks know that they will get a good show offensively. He even admitted to TIVO-ing the MACC and watching the finish several times. He loves those types of games.
He said that when a 6-5(2-4 in conference) team goes to a bowl that they know they just need 6 wins to get too, offers no excitement for the casual fan or TV viewer that is not traditionally linked to that team or conference.
The Nielsen ratings for the MAC games last year and he suspects this year were very very good- that is until Toledo decimated it's opponent.
He really wishes there were more bowl games like the Big Ben 2003 GMC game and the MACC with NIU-Akron- that he said is now a rivalry writ in stone. NIU finally getting to the MACC doing everything right for years-except beating one team in its division vs a Team that won a three way tiebreaker and backed into the MACC and then went and beat the better team on a miracle play.

We talked a bit more about local sports and future stars in area. He said there are no Vicks, but there are more than a few defensive stars in the making, if they can make grades. He said that many of the local teams only manage players education as far as it is necessary to graduate and to qualify for an ACC team or a SEC team. Anyone who exceeds that is doing it on his own. He said the numbers of partial qualifiers coming out of Hampton Roads football teams is appalling and he probably should do an Expose on it- if allowed.
He's had many such stories killed during concept meetings because his bosses had children or family/friends on the teams to be investigated in a story and didn't want it to come to light. Same goes for local ACC/BE/SEC teams. You don't poke a finger into the wasps nest.


In short he said that we had to look at MAC teams that had good enough basketball to shore up BE basketball-Football teams should the non-football members split out to the A-10 and other conferences that were Bball only.
Look for MAC teams that had expansion programs built into the long term facility upgrades above and beyond what's been shown publicly.
Look for MAC teams that fit into a two way or even three way rivalry in Football and are near large markets. Miami UC Louisville could become such a triad. Pitt-WVU-OU another.
Look for teams along the Iron Corridor- blue collar areas. That's along the Ohio from where it joins the Mississippi all the way up the Monongahela and what ever the other river that forms the Ohio river junction in Pittsburgh. (I asked how Toledo fit in this, or Syracuse and Uconn and he said they didn't, but were in Industrial towns and fit the blue collar image well enough- I said Miami? Blue Collar? Not really, but many of the towns nearby were such (ie Middletown with its steel and paper industries).
He said that to succeed they needed to get the fans from those areas involved.

Then finally he said look at the bowl picture, the BCS pressures and where a NEW local bowl might go that would increase interest.
He said traditional southern bowls are losing money and fan interest quickly especially when all they get from the big six is a 6-5 team that basically got the bowl on conference name alone.
He said fans would love to see a 10-1 NIU go to their bowl vs a SEC/ACC/BE/Big 10 6-5 team.

HE also said that he wouldn't be surprised if the BE and MAC merged and split current teams along a East West Demarcation and had a Bowl-TV fund split contract that shared all incomes and had more crossover games to build rivalries and expand older ones too.

He said this might occur, but not be a straight north south split but more of a gerrymandered NE to SW split.
This means that we should watch for BE and MAC personnel visiting each other more this winter and spring.
He said that was his own idea, but built on tidbits he's heard from sources. He said it just might be that MAC ends up with 3 good Football teams and 6 strong Bball teams and BE ends up with 6 good Football and the lesser basketball teams.
He said future schedules, crossover games, and a possible new BE-MAC tournament in the Gund preseason might occur. He also said that he'd heard that there might be a Big 10-BE-MAC preseason tourney at the Gund too, but after that source mentioned it, he'd heard nothing else and hadn't looked deeper.


I said I guess a dead horse is never truly dead and he said- "The horse was never dead. It was never a horse in the first place. It's just one stubborn Jackass that refuses to die."


Could a BE-MAC merger occur? Easily, but IMHO it's more likely that there will be a mutual sharing of teams as long as both sides get 12 Football and basketball schools. The BE wants to keep the BCS pie slice, but would much prefer to share it with a close associate conference than share it with the others and have to compete for the slots too.

If new bowls are brought to the table with the BE as a partner look to see which bowls would lose a BE member and which are in trouble financially and due to butts-in-seat problems. Certification problems with current bowls is a bigger indication of changes to come.

There will be lots of changes coming in bowl line-ups and traditional guaranteed tie ins.
Bowls with at least one or two local conference tie ins seem to do better when a non-traditional team comes in.
Bowls may change to have ONE tie in with the possibility of taking a better local team instead to protect themselves from losing certification and the money that the bowls bring in.

Boise's and Hawaii's bowls traditionally do very well if Boise and Hawaii are Hosting, otherwise they just SUCK.

As noted Hawaii bowl is in big trouble- they will be changing format very fast if they want to stay alive. They lost the Hula bowl to the continent and they want to keep one bowl at all costs.
To do this they need to keep WESTERN US teams involved- this means PAC 10, WAC, Big 12 and western CUSA need to be involved.

This also means that the bowl shakeups will preceed major conference juggling and even affect the BCS leagues. If the non-BCS teams reorganize and establish themselves in local bowls the BCS conferences will need to find slots for their .500+ teams. This means going to centralized bowls or going north instead of south.
The Big ten and BE are already established and positioned to do just this.
The MCB bowl experiment (and the BE/Big Ten saw this as an experiment) has proved to be a big winner. With bigger teams associated with the MCB the pay-out should increase if it can get a revenue share and team guarantee tie in that brings in larger local membership/fans from host city and surroundings.

We shouldn't be discussing which teams leave the MAC to goto the BE or other conferences, we should be discussing which bowls can be made local or in the north and on same model as the MCB and that can enhance opportunities for the MAC/BE as if they were closet cousins.

Right now the BE isn't a rival or an enemy, but a potential ally in a major shake up. The MAC is positioned to step up and replace the BE if need be, and the BE is aware of this. They'd rather become allies and share the spotlight and moneys and keep it at home with more localized bowls.
The MCB is a winner. The Toronto Bowl and Indianapolis Bowl could be more of the same. The MAC knows this and has the numbers to back it up. The BE is watching and positioning itself to work with the MAC vs against it. Especially if the BCS turns on the BE.

[NWLB]

Its a long read, but curious in any case. Could the MAC and the Big East find a way to effectively merge? A concept noted had the Big East splitting football off, forming another basketball conference, and going in that direction. Could the MAC and BE combine with football playing in its own league, with an affiliated league covering round ball? It is an interesting thought, and even if the reporter was blowing smoke, there is a lot of indication that the MAC and BE are talking about something beyond tossing Temple a bone.

[BGDrew]

Seems pretty simple to me: If BG wants to stay competitive they need to continue to improve facilities.

[NWLB]

Lets extend the thinking and play with this a bit.

I'd think the BE wouldn't seek a super conference along the lines of the old WAC, however what if a different system, one that basically keeps the leagues on their own were developed.

With the 12 game schedule, I wonder if it is against the NCAA rules to be able to schedule the final games at the end of a season. IE, create a super championship series, with the MAC divisional winners meeting for the 12th game, and the MACC game being between the BE and MAC.

To fill the 12th game for the rest of the conference, in theory you could book a 12th game for all, with provisos that if a team is called to the conference title game, they are replaced with somebody else from the other half of the conference.

You could create huge TV attention if the BE matched such a system with their own.

Indeed, these playoff fanatics would effectively get what they want, and the bowls would remain intact, the BCS would remain, and all would be happier.

[rocketfootball]

This post was over on Miami's board. It is very long, but it has some interesting info in it. It talks more about Ohio, Miami and Toledo in relation to the Big East. For those interested, here it is:

All I am going to say about that post is this:

Temple was never in the Big East for basketball. What the hell is this supposed reporter talking about Temple basketball in the Big East before the BE kicked Temple out?

Also, he mentions that 4 bowls are on double secret probation and says that the Silicon Valley Classic is one of them. Well, the SVC was dropped after 2004. It doesn't even exist anymore.


Finally, does anyone here really think that the Big East is thinking "we are on the verge of losing our BCS bid and the MAC is poised to take it from us????" The MAC has too much dead weight and is not under any consideration by ANYBODY for an automatic BCS bid.