Attendance Issue Clarification?

[Warthog]

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... /610200403

Maureen writes about the issue of the attendance requirement in todays Toledo Blade. FWIW, it raises about as many questions as it answers.

Here are some of the highlights:
- Schools need to average 15,000 in paid or actual attendance.

- Penalty is that school must average 15,000 every year instead of once every two years for the next ten years. If the 15,000 mark is not met, the year after that the school will not be allowed to play in a bowl game.

- Current paid attendance average is 12,337. BG has until Feb 15 to turn in either attendance figure to the NCAA.

- Attendance number listed in box score is not the same as paid because it could include sponsorship giveaways.

- Unless the entire sponsorship giveaway allotment is used, it cannot be counted toward the paid attendance.

- Here are the numbers thus far
Paid/Announced
Wisconsin 22,460/30,307
Buffalo 8,459/14,227
Kent 10,635/12,967
EMU 11,413/14,525

- One way to help the Miami attendance is to use some of the sponsorship money to pay for the ticket giveaways if the full allotment is not used.

- The school can charge as little as one-third the face value for tickets for them to count (so for the Miami game, the cheapest tickets could go for is $8 since the face value is $26)


Questions this brings up:
1) What is the actual attendance? Is it the box score number?
2) It seems the actual attendance is MUCH higher than the paid, so why aren't we using the actual?
3) Given the attendance CMU experienced last night, wouldn't that be a harbinger of us having a bad attendance night against Miami?
4) How do they know the full allotment of sponsorship tickets are not used? We discussed in another thread about the fact the tickets don't have a bar code, so how do they know which ones are used?

[BGSU33]

It seems the actual attendance is MUCH higher than the paid, so why aren't we using the actual?

That's a question I would like to know the answer to as well.

The bottom line now is, we have got to get over the limit this year. It would be a crime to not be able to play in a bowl game in the next year or two because we didn't make the cut this year in attendance. I can't even begin to imagine us winning a MAC title and not being eligible because of this. Furthermore, I can’t believe we’re in this situation period after coming so close last year and then thinking the Cleveland game this year solved things, only to make things more cloudy. I know there’s a lot of people on here who hate the attendance topic, but there’s no running from it or ignoring it, it’s a problem and it’s not going away for us.

[theziggies]

It says the current actual attendance average is 12,337. They pick whatever is higher.

[factman]

It seems to me that the "administration" has been rather lax in addressing the problem until now, and seem to be going into panic mode. I guess you could always shift some money around and buy tickets, since it goes back in your pocket anyway, but it would look rather silly if we had to have more than capacity for the final game, and we are not that far off. I am sure they will find a way to make it, and if not I am SURE we made the wrong choice in picking a new AD. Maybe the real problem is that we did not make it last year when we were so close.

[BGSU33]

It seems to me that the "admisnistration" has been rather lax in addressing the problem until now, and seem to be going into panic mode. I guess you could always shift some money around and buy tickets, since it goes back in your pocket anyway, but it would look rather silly if we had to have more than capacity for the final game, and we are not that far off. I am sure they will find a way to make it, and if not I am SURE we made the wrong choice in picking a new AD. Maybe the real problem is that we did not make it last year when we were so close.

Good points. At this time, I don't care what we have to do, as long as we do it (within the rules, etc.). We can't let this season hurt us down the road. This is going to be a topic we must work harder to take care of in the next few weeks and from here on out. What a bummer of a day yesterday was, first all the attendance articles, then the CMU loss.

[Jacobs4Heisman]

It seems to me they could use "actual" attendance, and then just overreport the number a bit like EVERY OTHER BORDERLINE SCHOOL IS DOING!


This should be such a non-issue it's ridiculous. If we miss a bowl game because of this BS, I'll be outside the athletic offices with a torch and pitchfork. That shouldn't be an issue 'til 2009 though, so they have some time to work out the kinks.

[Rightupinthere]

It seems to me that the "administration" has been rather lax in addressing the problem until now, and seem to be going into panic mode.

This seems odd to me. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding regarding how Neutral Field attendance was counted.

More questions than answers. I fear our beloved BGSU football program is in for a serious hosing in the next couple of years.

[Warthog]

I missed that in there. So that begs the question, at least to me, about why we report the box score number we do. It appears there is actually three different attendance numbers then: announced (box score), paid and actual. Can we get a clear definition of each of these?

Another issue I would guess is the actual number. Heck, we have discussed here numerous times that even the 'box score' number seemed low. Apparently that is the most inflated of the three numbers and the 'actual' attendance is even lower. Our total actual attendance must be 49,348 (12,337 * 4). Based on the other numbers, about 42% of our 'attendance' was at the Wisconsin game, which means the actual was approximately 20,726. Which also means the average actual attendance for games at the Doyt is only 9,540. Does that seem anywhere close to being accurate??? There is no way students must be counted in that number. If that is the case, how can that be the 'actual' attendance?

My head is spinning. I think I would rather discuss four way tie-breakers for teams with two losses and all 2-1 against each other.

[bgsufalcon24]

I just noticed something. The difference between the paid and announced attendances looks VERY much like the total student attendance for those games! If they announce the paid 12,337 statistic, that's what we've done so far minus the students since we don't pay to get into the games! Using the paid statistic would be an outrage.

[Mr. Frieda]

Does anyone think that maybe BG's football program has tried to grow too big too quick?? I remember ticket prices being much cheaper just a few years ago. We're adding facilities, scoreboards, and many things so quickly, prices have shot up and attendance since 03 has dropped off. I know we had some success, but i feel like Krebs tried to move us too far too fast. We are now feeling some growing pains as a program for that.

Just my thoughts as a past student leader who saw that back side of things.

[Rightupinthere]

http://www.ncaa.org/library/membership/ ... manual.pdf
From the 2004-05 bylaws:

20.9.6.3Football-Attendance Requirements. [I-A] The institution annually shall average at least 15,000 in actual attendance for all home football games. (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/04)

20.9.6.3.1 Counting Attendance. For purposes of computing attendance figures, an individual may be counted if any one of the following conditions applies:
(a) Attendees are issued tickets that are collected upon admission to the game and retained;
(b) Attendees enter through and are counted by a turnstile that is monitored by a representative
of the department of athletics who verifies in writing the accuracy of the count on a per-game
basis; or
(c) Attendees enter through a gate at which a representative of the department of athletics
counts them individually with a manual counter, and the representative provides a written
statement verifying the accuracy of the count on a per-game basis.

20.9.6.3.3 Certified Audit. In meeting the football-attendance requirements of Division I-A, an institution must undertake an annual certified audit verifying its football attendance. The audit must be conducted by an outside auditing firm. The audited football actual-attendance figures must be received in the NCAA national office not later than the February 15 following the completion of the football season and NCAA national office staff shall verify compliance with all Division I-A attendance requirements. The certified audit and materials (including the
ticket manifest) must be available for inspection for a four-year period.

I'm going to digest the actual rules. There is NO limitations regarding neutral field. If our turnstiles are indeed broken as some fear, we may be the victim of a wardrobe malfunction.

The irony is how this rule has NOTHING to do with the Division I Philosophy Statement

[San Diego Falcon]

This is asinine. The actual attendance figure is obviously understated. How do they even compile that number when the turnstiles do not work and people are not manually counting?

If an eyeball estimate of actual attendance is not allowed by the rules, then someone in the administration has really dropped the ball by not implementing controls and procedures to rectify the situation.

[MACMAN]

this is how the pork will be trimed.
I hate to think of us as pork but...absurdly large number of Bowl Games must be trimed as well,. to some extent.

This might be the mark of DIVISONAL REALINGMEnT.
IN that the NCAA will create a new divinson that separates D1 ie the BCS D! and the rest of D1.
I think it creates great opurtunity to put rulles in place will controll entrance better than those done back in the 70s, which has lead to many schools in D1 now, as there is clearly a rift between the majority of the BCS and the rest of d1. This is good also because by riding ourselves of the BCS we could see a BCS conference move to a playoff system and one for the rest of D1 as well, including some great sideline bowls.
Change is needed and it would be nice to see the NCAA actually enforce these rulls to perpetuate this change...
Sadly I can see some change of exclusion as well being written in to likes of a BCS school must have a stadium that can hold 70,000 and have an average attendance of 35,000. Whch would cost huge bucks for some school to try to join up the ladder...
Change is good. and college football needs some right now

[Warthog]

(c) Attendees enter through a gate at which a representative of the department of athletics
counts them individually with a manual counter, and the representative provides a written
statement verifying the accuracy of the count on a per-game basis.

I think we should hire some former Enron employees to do a manual count on 11/15.

[Rightupinthere]

Heck, at this point I would settle for a bunch of cross-eye ADD teenagers with hand clickers hepped up on speed and nicotine patches.