FMB to play at BOA event in Indianapolis!

[The Niz]

You seem to think we're all content and happy with the way things are. You are not in rehearsal every day, you probably don't talk to the majority of the membership, so how do you know people are satisfied and content. If there's one thing the BGMC has taught me, its that even if we were the best in the country, it still wouldn't be good enough for many of us.

Gruber and Mark, one of the main causes of the poor attitudes in the band are people from the Huto era. Still whiny and bitter and unwilling to put some effort forth on their own to help things out.

[MarkL]

Niz, I don't know a thing about the Huto era, but I think the problem is about here and now. Effort and work ethic are clearly different section to section, based off of personnel there. I'm not going to point any sections out or be specific but in some sections, the work ethic is really good and it shows. In such sections the leadership demands a lot and the personnel there is willing to deliver. In others the opposite is true, where the members of the section don't memorize music but see no consequences of it, where the effort isn't there in music or marching, and it really shows. Along with that, practice is much more fun when people are working hard and we get stuff done. When people are screwing around and nothing gets done, time is wasted and those practices are honestly quite depressing.

What I really think its going to take to get the attitudes and work ethics to where they need to be is for people to emerge as strong leaders and role models, even if they are not in a leadership role. (I'm one to believe that all vets are leaders and role models.) Such people have stepped up but nearly nobody has followed in their examples and that has got to change. People have to be willing to work hard, and when everybody works hard and achieves greatness, the accomplishments are really something to be proud of, and I believe the FMB has the potential to be a great band.

[jg4242]

I know enough about the Huto era to know that Nate is absolutely right. The poor attitudes on the field are the result of few vets who are still scattered around the band who's bad attitudes spread through the rank and file. Mark is right in the sense that it is up to those of us who care passionately about the band to see that those attitudes disappear, and to encourage those around us to strive for perfection every day. The way to do that is not to complain to the directors about what isn't being done/is being done wrong, but to take care of those problems ourselves. Dr. Hayward can control what we rehearse and how much we rehearse it, but it is up to the students to buy into the system and put our energy into our work.

the quality is way down, and it has nothing to do with the students.

I call bullshit. The problems we have are not the kind that can be fixed by the directors. They have given us a system in which we can succeed, now we have to provide the spirit that makes the system function. It is up to the student leadership and the general membership of the band to push the FMB from being a good band to being a great one.

[Bassdrummin]

good luck with that.

[Rightupinthere]

good luck with that.

Reading too much of the hockey forum?

[Metz]

It is up to the student leadership and the general membership of the band to push the FMB from being a good band to being a great one.

jg4242, I'm quoting what you said but this is directed at everyone, not just you!

That won't happen. From what I have heard, people are afraid to step up in fear of their careers and having a good reference. I personally know people who wanted to switch instruments who were told they weren't allowed. It's a public school marching band, people should be able to at least audition on whatever instrument they want! For example, say the best overall sax player wants to switch to bass drum...as someone pursuing a degree in music ed, why would they be told they were not allowed to audition?! There's nothing saying they will make it...it's not certain! Yet they go along with it to keep that future reference I mentioned earlier. Students are simply afraid.

If that's actually the problem, then the fun and that internal want to really learn is gone. Argue if you want, but let's face it, if everyone isn't enjoying what they are doing, they aren't going to be focused and actually want to be disciplined on the field in rehearsals. Yeah there may be a few of you who still love what you are there for, but walk down the lines in block and tell me every single persons face shows the same thing. Is this possible? Maybe, maybe not. But we had a lot of people who wanted to be there when I marched and they made the shitty days great for the people who were on the edge of quitting.

I see it on the field and hear people talking and it's leaning the other way now. You guys are calling out your fellow marchers to change the way they are saying the leadership has no effect on that. Everyone in band has an effect on each other from the person who should be in Tiger rank, to the top dogs. If from day one your section leader isn't energetic about anything, are you going to want to be as an incoming freshman? What happens when that same pattern continues for a few years and all those incoming freshmen are now moving into the leadership positions? A very dull and negative environment happens. That needs to change and something or someone needs to light a fire under all your a**es! Now is that your section leaders fault or even the vet's fault? No...because their mindsets have been built on previous experiences that they haven't enjoyed.

A good leader is someone who can create an environment where everyone buys into their goal while using their authority to in turn better the end product. To do this, the environment they create has to let the people below have a voice in order for those people to fully enjoy what they are doing. When the power is abused and the voice is taken away, it becomes a place no one wants to be every day. The results from this we can all watch on the field.

What are you going to do about it?

[tubachic]

This is all crazy talk.......maybe if you just had BUFFO, the sun will once again shine on the Falcon Marching Band!!!!!!!

[Drummerfuj]

First off, if the band has disciplinary issues such as talking, the director can fix that. Any director that cannot keep the demeanor of the students in line is not a good director. I'm not willing to debate that. As far as the amplified singers at UMASS, that was one year, it's not like they do that every year, so there's my argument for that. As far as UC and MU go, both of the percussion sections are way better. MU has large amount of students that march DCI/WGI, so I believe that's why they're better and UC has NIck Angelis as their instructor (he's one of the snare soloists from Blast!) On top of that, UC's sound was much more refined. Last time I saw the FMB the mellophone sound was so loud and so crass that it made me want to get up and leave. And for those of you that think you are playing well designed shows.......I don't even know what to say. The FMB is not in a league with bands like U of M and JMU because the FMB is half the size. A 350 piece band is a whole different story, and yes, those bands are great as well. My biggest complaint with the laziness of the FMB is that a good chuck of the educators in the band will have the FMB as their most advanced marching experience. If any of you think for one second that you'll learn enough in the FMB to have a really great band of your own, you're wrong. It's because of that mentality that we have tons of little FMB's on Friday nights all over the state of Ohio, and that's not a good thing. Tons of mediocre attempts at a good marching band, that's it. The corps/competition style band is not about competing or winning at all. It's about teaching your students how to refine their work, strive for perfection, and eventually achieve some level of "perfection." It's ridiculous that more people aren't trying to march DCI/DCA/WGI in this ensemble, because that's where you'll really learn. For all of you that think I'm full of crap, I'll see you in the future on Friday nights at Football games and we can have one of those really fake conversations where I tell you that I've never heard a better rendition of Pretty Fly for a White Guy, or whatever the most recent trend in the Arrangers Publishing library is. When you have a lazy, "show" band, you're robbing your students of a proper education, and I hope that you see that it's not fair at all to do that to your students. Good luck at BOA, and when you get there, I assure you, they're not "blooing," they're booing.

[jacojdm]

When you have a lazy, "show" band, you're robbing your students of a proper education, and I hope that you see that it's not fair at all to do that to your students.

Why?

[The Niz]

Why do you consider 'show' bands to be lazy? I learned six shows a year in high school, and there was nothing lazy about that. Our fans also actually enjoyed watching us every week, which is more than I can say for a great deat of competition bands around the state.

Both styles have the benefits ands downfalls.

[Rightupinthere]

When you have a lazy, "show" band, you're robbing your students of a proper education, and I hope that you see that it's not fair at all to do that to your students.

This is the dumbest statements I've seen on AZZ.com in quite some time. Congratulations, snob-boy.

I hope you realize that you will eventually be railroading your students into a very narrow mind-set......much like the mind-set with which your past/present instructors have plague you.

*edit* I have friends who have these "lazy show bands" and they are also great sit-down bands. See, the band directors believe there is more benefit to their students in sit-down than in marching - that is where they apply their student's energy.

Grip: get one.

[jg4242]

That won't happen. From what I have heard, people are afraid to step up in fear of their careers and having a good reference.

Why would people be afraid to step up and push themselves and the people around them to do better? I'm not talking about stepping up in opposition to the directors, as that would accomplish nothing and only intensify the problems we have. Furthermore, I do not believe that they are the cause of the problems.

Everyone in band has an effect on each other from the person who should be in Tiger rank, to the top dogs. If from day one your section leader isn't energetic about anything, are you going to want to be as an incoming freshman? What happens when that same pattern continues for a few years and all those incoming freshmen are now moving into the leadership positions? A very dull and negative environment happens.

This is the problem. You've nailed it! This is what needs to change, and it has to start with the leadership. They have to put the needs of the band above their personal opinions and inspire those around them to do the same. I agree that every single member is vitally important to the success of the band, but you have to start somewhere. The section/squad leaders and drum majors have to set the example to the rest of the band, regardless of their past experiences. If they do that, the rest of the band WILL follow them!

Now is that your section leaders fault or even the vet's fault? No...because their mindsets have been built on previous experiences that they haven't enjoyed.

This is where I tend to disagree with you... if, as you say, the problem stems from the section/squad leaders, isn't it their responsibility to change their behavior/attitude for the betterment of the band? I can guarantee you that if they will grow up and get over whatever negative experiences they've had and get on with working to EXCEL in the here and now, the improvement in the band will be immediate and dramatic. It's just that simple. Let's get over the past and get on with it, already!

First off, if the band has disciplinary issues such as talking, the director can fix that.

Yeah, but wouldn't it be so much easier and more efficient if the student leadership would eliminate that off the bat? I'm not saying that the responsibility for disciplining students should rest with the student leaders. I'm saying that the student leadership can and should set the standard of behavior for the rest of the band. If Joe Band sees his squad leader talking, what's he going to do? Talk! The student leadership can take care of this problem quickly and efficiently by making clear what the expected standard of behavior is from day one. Then, the director can spend her time worrying about why the fliccs are on the wrong chart rather than why people are talking in rehearsal. Again, it all comes back to efficiency!

As far as the amplified singers at UMASS, that was one year, it's not like they do that every year, so there's my argument for that.

I found three separate seasons where UMass used singers. I can post the links to the videos if you like. Please don't make claims that you can't back up, it makes you look foolish.

The FMB is not in a league with bands like U of M and JMU because the FMB is half the size.

It's not the size that counts, it's how you use it

When you have a lazy, "show" band, you're robbing your students of a proper education, and I hope that you see that it's not fair at all to do that to your students.

You're right, a LAZY band is a disservice to the students. But I don't think that the students at UM, FAMU, UIUC, AWHS, BGHS, MSU, Purdue, Notre Dame, Cal, or Washington would agree that a show band is robbing them of a proper education. Marching band is not drum corps. They serve two related but distinctly different roles in a student's education. I'm not saying that striving for perfection is a bad thing. I'm saying that there's a lot more to a high school marching band than that.

[MarkL]

did you quote enough? jeez you put a lot of time into that ....

[jg4242]

I guess I got a little carried away....

[PresBG]

Gruber and Mark, one of the main causes of the poor attitudes in the band are people from the Huto era. Still whiny and bitter and unwilling to put some effort forth on their own to help things out.

To all involved in this thread...I think it's taken a much unneeded turn for the worse. However, I think both sides of this 'argument' have equally valid points. Now, as I respect you all and everything you have to say, the above quote I whole heartedly disagree with.

Niz, I've been in this band for 5 years, one with HuTo and four with Dr. Hayward as director. Now I'll admit that I've had my fair share of disagreements with some of Dr. Hayward's decisions and such, but as one of the people from the Huto era from which you speak, you are full of crap. I will agree that there have been those who yes, dont put forth effort to make the band better....BUT There have been many more people who have. To say what you did, generalizes and lumps all of the HuTo era marchers into one collective and to be honest with you, that is insulting. I have been privileged to march in this band, no matter how good or bad it has been, and have met some of the most amazing and influencial people through said band. Most of whom I consider the people who have made me into the person I am today were, in fact, HuTo era marchers.

Maybe, maybe not. But we had a lot of people who wanted to be there when I marched and they made the shitty days great for the people who were on the edge of quitting.

Case in point: I almost quit after 3 days of Fundies Week my freshman year, but it was a HuTo era marcher who convinced me to stay, thus allowing me to spend 5 years in a band that I will happily call my home, regardless of its talent level or current morale.

If from day one your section leader isn't energetic about anything, are you going to want to be as an incoming freshman? What happens when that same pattern continues for a few years and all those incoming freshmen are now moving into the leadership positions? A very dull and negative environment happens. That needs to change and something or someone needs to light a fire under all your a**es! Now is that your section leaders fault or even the vet's fault? No...because their mindsets have been built on previous experiences that they haven't enjoyed.

Gruber and Mark, one of the main causes of the poor attitudes in the band are people from the Huto era.

Really? I'm sorry, but i personally feel that Mike is right here for a few reasons.
#1 - Well, it wouldnt really matter if I was from the Chief era marching under his successor, someone would pose this same argument.
#2 - Let's look at the remainder of Huto era marchers that either a) marched in the last 2 years OR b) will be marching this year. As for last year, because I know the number like clockwork, we had 6, count them 6, people who had marched under Dr. Toney. 6 out of 225. This year, the FMB will be lucky enough to maybe have ONE. And let's not forget that all 6 of us that did march last year...with maybe one exception...were 5th year marchers. If we really truly did not enjoy our experience, we would have stopped marching long ago.
#3 - speaking of quitting and not enjoying it, the one's who truly have not enjoyed their time, left the band of their own accord. Do not misplace their decision to leave with my decision to stay. People get burnt out YES, but people keep coming back, right? Their attitude towards the FMB cant be that bad if they keep coming back to something they like or even love.

Now not to speak for them....but since you're calling out the remainder of the HuTo era vets, let's see who we're talking about (NOTE: this is not an exhaustive list and I am probably missing some names. But the information is correct. I also apologize if you feel misrepresented here, and if so, contact me and I will remove your name):

Myself - yes, passionate about the success of the group, but willing to admit when I'm wrong and not afraid to voice my opinion.
Brian Seever - Also a very talented leader and 2 year drum major. (sorry for leaving you off Brian!)
Lord Lewis - a goofball by nature, but still very passionate about the success of the FMB, regardless of the decisions of the director.
Jason Lozer - an amazing musician and talented leader.
OAK - like wise, not afraid to voice his opinion and probably one of the biggest supporters of the program, whether you believe it or not.
Jenny Schaffer - really? need I say more? How would she possibly contribute to discord amongst members of this program? Probably the least likely to even think about saying anything to create a hostile and negative environment.

*for the record - of those 6 names listed, all are members of Tau Beta Sigma or Kappa Kappa Psi, Honorary Band Sorority/Fraternity for College Bandmembers who have the utmost respect for, and desire to continually improve our college/university band programs. Further reminder, Fuj was also a member of that organization as well as a HuTo era alum, though very vocal, still an extremely hard working member of the ensemble from 2001-2003 (is that right Fuj?).

I could go on - but I wont. On to the next point.

I know enough about the Huto era to know that Nate is absolutely right. The poor attitudes on the field are the result of few vets who are still scattered around the band who's bad attitudes spread through the rank and file.

No, now [/b]I[/b] call bullsh*t....and back to Mike's (and MarkL's, although not quoted) point again. There are plenty of CURRENT members who have contributed even more so to the discontent of the FMB as of recent years, if not the majority. Remember, the FMB actually brings in almost more new members than it retains.

Agree, Disagree....you're entitled to do what you want with what I've said. But know that HuTo era marchers/FMB alumni like myself (as I'm no longer marching) and Metz, amongst a cast of thousands from that era and others, would do almost anything to make sure the FMB succeeds no matter what. You run a great risk when you say things like what's been said, from turning away alumni assistance and to possible future membership.

Granted, I dont have my card-carrying, i'm gonna raise hell BGSU alumni status yet, I have d*mn well earned my FMB alumni status and I will be d*mned if my 5 years is going to be put to question by anyone....because if I had to go back and do it all over again......I would not change a thing.

This post does not agree or disagree with the statements regarding lazy show bands or the BOA's guest band standards. Mainly, I'm relatively offended by what has been said here regarding myself and some of my fellow marchers, past or present. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not saying I'm wrong, I am saying though...dont just look at the past to think it's the only way to fix the future.

And down.[/b]