The Yang to the Wilson story Yin

Warthog · Post by **Warthog** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:29 am

This article and the story about Kris Wilson are in the Blade today. FWIW, the "Flight of the Falcons" is four columns, top left on the front page of the sports section, including a huge picture of Dan taking up two-thirds of the top half of the paper.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... /-1/SPORTS

One quote from Dakich that chaps my a$$ is, when referring to recruiting players, Dan says "You're going to be coached like Indiana when I was there." Why do we have to to like Indiana? Can't we have our own identity?

PGY Tiercel · Post by **PGY Tiercel** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:45 am

You left off the first part of that quote in which he refers to coaching kids "like a mid-major basketball player". He uses Indiana as a example because thats where he was and because Indiana has a history of success. In my opinion his attempt was to say that he wants to treat the players like they in the top conferences. That he expects them think and play with the mentality of a big 10 or SEC or whatever team. Thats just my thoughts on what he thinks he's doing and where he is trying to come from. If thats the intent, then I agree with the approach. Has he really achieved that, lately it just doesn't appear that way.

I am slightly torn with the latter parts of the article, with the email from Vandemeer. At one point you want to say maybe they need to find a way to ease the freshman into the program so that they don't burn out the first year and leave. Work them into getting used to the program. Of course that probably entails them playing even less, which more and more we will need freshman to play. But part of me agrees with Dan and that hard practice makes a better team, everyone needs to stay for that to work, and to get kids to stay they need sucess for hard work to be worth it. Example: My brother didn't like his Coach at Penn State, but he really wanted to achieve some personal goals. He came back after injury to get those, one being a National championship ring. If Penn state hadn't been that good I'm not sure he would have gone back.

orangeandbrown · Post by **orangeandbrown** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:52 am

Paul Krebs:

"Our league tends to be a league where the successful teams are veteran teams," BGSU athletics director Paul Krebs said. "I don't think anybody associated with the university or the athletic program would suggest [turnover] is a good thing.

Gosh, I know there are people here who say our teams gets better everytime someone leaves. For example, notice how much we improved when Steven Wright left.

Dayons_Den · Post by **Dayons_Den** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:56 am

The article says Vandermeer will play next year- no mention of a heart condition. . . .or knives.

Point of reference it is Yin and Yang, not Ying. . . unless you were referring to the rap/hip hop duo the Ying Yang Twins. (whistle while you twerk . . .)

Flipper · Post by **Flipper** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:05 am

It sounds like Dan's philosphy is one that demands a total commitment and an acceptance of the fact that there's always room for improvement.

I can see how that would be difficult for an 18 year-old to accept and work through. If you can't make them see that there's something to be gained by sticking with it and measuring up to that ideal, you're going to lose them.

Conversely, the kids have to learn that there's a world beyond the end of their fingertips and that today's challenge is tommorrow's opportunity or some such cliche'....I know..."tough times don't last, tough people do"

I think that's in every weight room in America

Bleeding Orange · Post by **Bleeding Orange** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:15 am

Hearing it layed out as Maureen did in this article, I must say that I am 100% behind Dakich's coaching philosophy. I've never played basketball at a high level, but if there has one thing that I have learned about life in my early adulthood it is that one can always improve, always be better, but it takes a lot of hard, relentless work.

It may drive some kids away from the program, but the ones who buy into what coach is offering them are going to be outstanding young men when they graduate. In a way its almost too bad that the frustration with Dakich has come to a breaking point among the fan base, because if Dan can really work on getting his message out there he might very quickly start bringing in kids who want to work in his program. Without the publicity surrounding transfers and a poor season, has hasn't, and wouldn't, have such an opportunity. I really hope that people can still look at this issue objectively, but I fear that ended quite some time ago.

JimmyZ11381 · Post by **JimmyZ11381** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:25 am

I completely agree with Bleeding Orange. I believe that when John Reimold transfered here from Loyola he said he wanted to come play here because the Loyola program wasn't working him hard enough. I would take a whole team of guys with that attitude. Does anybody else remember John saying this? I could be wrong.

dduncan · Post by **dduncan** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:29 am

It may drive some kids away from the program, but the ones who buy into what coach is offering them are going to be outstanding young men when they graduate. In a way its almost too bad that the frustration with Dakich has come to a breaking point among the fan base, because if Dan can really work on getting his message out there he might very quickly start bringing in kids who want to work in his program. Without the publicity surrounding transfers and a poor season, has hasn't, and wouldn't, have such an opportunity. I really hope that people can still look at this issue objectively, but I fear that ended quite some time ago.

I sure hope you're right. I just think that every MAC and some non-MAC schools will point out to any HS player looking into BG about how many players have left the program. How much will it affect the way Dan can recruit players is not quite known yet.

I thought Maureen did a good job at pointing out Kent losing 5 players. Does anyone know more about players who left other MAC programs and how it compares to BG? I assume if there were more teams like Kent, Maureen would have put that in the article.

All I know is BG has not seemed to have any sort of depth for a long time. Losing any more players just makes matters worse. Larranaga would run 10 deep.

hammb · Post by **hammb** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:31 am

Personally, I'm a fan of Dan's coaching style. Driving kids to be better through hard work etc. However, I don't think his method of delivery is working. I haven't been to a practice, or been to meetings, etc, so I cannot say for sure, but it seems to me that the kids don't feel as they're being treated properly. I don't know if it's derisive criticisms or never telling them anything positive, or what. Whatever is going on in the team's internal meetings is doing more to break these kids psychologically than it is to make them become better players.

I have no problems with a coach making his kids work hard, but at some point you do have to give them something positive to make them think all the work is worthwhile. I cannot say with any certainty, but with all the transfers it seems as though our kids are not getting enough positive feedback to see that the work they're putting in is accomplishing anything. When you're winning it's easy to point to the record and kid's will keep working. But it takes a good coach to make those kids see some positive light at the end of the tunnel and keep putting in the work even when the losses are piling up. I think it's pretty evident that our team has not been getting enough positive feedback to want to keep working.

Moreover, I think one reason we've seen such poor teams the past few years is that Dan is NOT a strong coach outside of motivating his players. When he has individually talented kids he can get them motivated to come out and play harder than their opposition. If you combine talent & hard work you're gonna win a lot. Our problem lately has been that we don't have a lot of individual talent, so even if they are working harder than their opposition that is still not enough to overcome Dan's deficiencies as an Xs & Os guy. We're awful out of timeouts, and have no inbounds plays other than chuck it deep and run under it. We do a poor job in game prep (as evidenced by falling behind early so often), but seem to make some nice adjustments once we're down. He's also a stubborn coach who refuses (until the last half of the last game of the year) to move away from the motion offense & man to man defense, even when we don't have the talent to properly execute those schemes.

I still think Dan could be a good coach, but I think it's time for a change of scenery for both Dan & the BG program. I know for a fact that a number of players were VERY upset when Dan returned to BG. I'm curious if that attitude hasn't proliferated down into the newcomers in the past 4 years as well, and every player that gets here ends up resenting the coach on some level...even if he's done nothing to them personally. We've all been in workplaces where there is an overriding attitude, and the new people eventually takeup that attitude as well.

One person who I'd REALLY like to talk to on this issue is Ron Lewis. That's a guy that played 2 years under Dan and was an individual star player. He left, and has since been playing under one of the brightest coaches in the game and having a lot of team success. I'd be VERY curious to hear him compare the 2 experiences.

In the end, I think Dan will be given another year to try and prove himself. I'm not sure what he could possibly do to earn an extension beyond next year, but we shall see. I would like to just have one single year where we don't have multiple kids transfer out of the program. The kids haven't shown much to date but I do think guys like Marschall, Moten, Clements, Sullivan, and Miller all have some amount of talent...I'd like to see it all stick around and develop into something. Of course we still don't have a single player on the team, or on the radar for the future that can actually play the point, and that will be our downfall next year as well.

CrazyFan · Post by **CrazyFan** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:37 am

Bleeding Orange wrote:Hearing it layed out as Maureen did in this article, I must say that I am 100% behind Dakich's coaching philosophy. I've never played basketball at a high level, but if there has one thing that I have learned about life in my early adulthood it is that one can always improve, always be better, but it takes a lot of hard, relentless work.

It may drive some kids away from the program, but the ones who buy into what coach is offering them are going to be outstanding young men when they graduate. In a way its almost too bad that the frustration with Dakich has come to a breaking point among the fan base, because if Dan can really work on getting his message out there he might very quickly start bringing in kids who want to work in his program. Without the publicity surrounding transfers and a poor season, has hasn't, and wouldn't, have such an opportunity. I really hope that people can still look at this issue objectively, but I fear that ended quite some time ago.

I totally agree. I love Dakich's coaching philosophy! I always have. A lot of the Dakich haters look at it as being a hard-nosed, stubborn, wear the players out system and that's exactly what it is. Its the old school way of coaching college basketball. He's going to work your a$$ off day after day after day. He's not going to sit their and hold your hand and cater to your every need which seems like where the trend is going in college b-ball now. No. It's his way or the highway. If you want more PT, get out. If you want to be closer to home because you haven't really grown up, get out. If you want to use us as your stepping stone to get into the big program you couldn't get in before, get the hell out!! But if you want to really learn the game of basketball and learn alot about yourself and the level you can take your game and your willing to work hard for it and run your a$$ off, then you can stay. Thats Dakich ball to the T. But theres one more aspect! If you want a coach that cares about your education, which is the MAIN reason your in college in the first place then Dakich is your man. If you want a coach that genuinly cares about you personally through thick and thin and is willing to throw you on his back years after you left his program, then Dakich is your guy.

We sit here and focus on the losing aspects of our program but we forget how good of a coach we have in all aspects of life. Dakich will be the one to turn this program around. I really don't see anyone transferring this offseason and its time to build. We were dealt some untimely misfortunes for many different reason the past couple of years, but it's time this program gets back on track and it starts with next season and I feel confident that coach Dakich WILL lead us back on top.

Jacobs4Heisman · Post by **Jacobs4Heisman** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:45 am

Would it be fair to say that Dakich's biggest problem of late is that he has been a terrible judge of character? the best recruiters will find kids that can fit into their system. Dakich has been pretty horrible the last 4 years at finding kids that are willing to work the way he demands.

Perhaps the staff needs to do more homework in the recruiting process. Perhaps Dan also needs to realize that he can still do things his way, but a little more positive reinforcement, even if it's behind closed doors, may be necessary.

I love Dakich as a guy. I even tend to like his old-school style of coaching, even though I don't agree with a lot of his basketball philosophies. As others have said, I'm not sure that approach will work anymore in today's day and age. As Metallica would say, it's so sad but true. I think Dan's time here has passed and both he and the program need to go in different directions for the greater good. I think he'll coach out his last year, and then no be asked to come back. Of course Krebs' situation is the wild card. Time will tell.

Warthog · Post by **Warthog** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:57 am

CrazyFan wrote:I love Dakich's coaching philosophy! I always have. A lot of the Dakich haters look at it as being a hard-nosed, stubborn, wear the players out system and that's exactly what it is. Its the old school way of coaching college basketball. He's going to work your a$$ off day after day after day. He's not going to sit their and hold your hand and cater to your every need which seems like where the trend is going in college b-ball now. No. It's his way or the highway. If you want more PT, get out. If you want to be closer to home because you haven't really grown up, get out. If you want to use us as your stepping stone to get into the big program you couldn't get in before, get the hell out!! But if you want to really learn the game of basketball and learn alot about yourself and the level you can take your game and your willing to work hard for it and run your a$$ off, then you can stay. Thats Dakich ball to the T.

There is more to being a good coach then just making your players work their a$$e$ off. I am all old-school, work hard and discipline too. BUT, you also need to know when to give some slack and let the player make some decisions on their own and see if they have learned anything. If you continue to work, work, work, with no freedom give, all it does is break your will. Is that what you want the coach to do?

Any one that has children understands this philosophy. You have to have rules and discipline. But you also have to let your kids find their own way too so they can make choices on their own. Continually beating into them NO, NO, NO, NO leads them to tune you out and doing the exact opposite. In the case of our basketball team, the players flat out leave.

dduncan · Post by **dduncan** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:11 am

I love Dakich as a guy. I even tend to like his old-school style of coaching, even though I don't agree with a lot of his basketball philosophies. As others have said, I'm not sure that approach will work anymore in today's day and age. As Metallica would say, it's so sad but true. I think Dan's time here has passed and both he and the program need to go in different directions for the greater good. I think he'll coach out his last year, and then no be asked to come back. Of course Krebs' situation is the wild card. Time will tell.

Why coach out the final year? I think it's best for Dan and for BG basketball to go forward now, rather than stall the process for another full season. The only question is whether BG has money in the budget for a buyout and a new coach? Probably not. That's one reason why Mike Davis wasn't let go after last season. The school just fired the football coach, had to buy out his contract, and didn't have enough money to pay the rest of Davis' contract.

But like you said, the Krebs situation is important. Personally, I love the system Villanova runs, and I think a lot of 18-22 year olds would like it also. It doesn't require big low post scorers, which is very tough to find in the MAC to begin with. It's based on penetrating, quick guards (multiple) that have decent range and can pressure the ball.

Jacobs4Heisman · Post by **Jacobs4Heisman** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:21 am

dduncan wrote:
I love Dakich as a guy. I even tend to like his old-school style of coaching, even though I don't agree with a lot of his basketball philosophies. As others have said, I'm not sure that approach will work anymore in today's day and age. As Metallica would say, it's so sad but true. I think Dan's time here has passed and both he and the program need to go in different directions for the greater good. I think he'll coach out his last year, and then no be asked to come back. Of course Krebs' situation is the wild card. Time will tell.
Why coach out the final year? I think it's best for Dan and for BG basketball to go forward now, rather than stall the process for another full season. The only question is whether BG has money in the budget for a buyout and a new coach? Probably not. That's one reason why Mike Davis wasn't let go after last season. The school just fired the football coach, had to buy out his contract, and didn't have enough money to pay the rest of Davis' contract.

But like you said, the Krebs situation is important. Personally, I love the system Villanova runs, and I think a lot of 18-22 year olds would like it also. It doesn't require big low post scorers, which is very tough to find in the MAC to begin with. It's based on penetrating, quick guards (multiple) that have decent range and can pressure the ball.

It's not what I think should happen, but rather what I think will happen. I would rather the university stomach the buyout amount than go through a lame-duck year. I just don't think we have the green.

orangeandbrown · Post by **orangeandbrown** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:09 pm

I have nothing against his style. But sooner or later, he has to begin employing his style to produce winning teams again, or it won't matter.