Athletics spending is irresponsible

Discussion of the Falcon football team.
User avatar
ZiggyZoomba
The Wizard of AZZ
The Wizard of AZZ
Posts: 5916
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:37 pm
Location: Elmore, OH

Post by ZiggyZoomba »

Hyperbole, thy name is youth....

In actuality, the high price of tuition in states across the nation is so high, it's a greater threat than any other we are currently facing. It threatens to kill more of us than terrorism ever will.

While I agree tuition prices are out of hand, to compare it to killing via terrorism is just... well... it's apples and oranges. And, based upon his arguments, we can extrapolate that athletes are terrorists. ;-) I thought Maurice Clarett was the only one... I guess they ALL are! :P
Grant Cummings
ROLL ALONG!!!
"We are linked to this institution by invisible bonds that do not wither or dissolve." --BGSU President, Dr. Ralph W. McDonald - 1968
User avatar
Rightupinthere
Mercenary of Churlishness
Mercenary of Churlishness
Posts: 6549
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:53 am
Location: Ye Olde Pigeon Hole

Post by Rightupinthere »

When you can't counter with logic and reason, counter with emotionally charged rhetoric.
:roll:

I suddenly feel the need for a shower. I hate emotion.
"Science doesn’t know everything? Well science KNOWS it doesn’t know everything… otherwise it’d stop."
Dara O'Brian - Comedian
User avatar
Falcon52
Fledgling
Fledgling
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:07 am
Location: 6'1" - 255lbs

Post by Falcon52 »

The best thing is to just ignore articles like the one written. Young journalist trying to make a name for himself. Kids like him have always just written bs articles to get a charge out of people. No different than the evening news. Of course he would love our feedback and try to argue. That's the point. He's got you. You read his article and are charged up about it. He could have said just about anything to do that. Ignore him. I didn't read it. As soon as I heard BGNews bashing some other group in an editorial. Papers have been doing that for years.

Just ignore stuff like that.
User avatar
Jacobs4Heisman
a.k.a. Capt. Rex Kramer
a.k.a. Capt. Rex Kramer
Posts: 7889
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:59 pm
Location: Aliquippa, PA

Post by Jacobs4Heisman »

He can't actually agree with what he's writing. There's just so much evidence against all of his points, it's not even worth digging up.

Like 52 said -- obviously just trying to get a rise out of people. This adds about as much value to the paper as ninny's posts add to AZZ.
Roll Along!
SmurK
Egg
Egg
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:06 pm
Location: Bowling Green, OH
Contact:

REPLIES TO VARIOUS COMMENTS

Post by SmurK »

You all must have graduated from colleges like BGSU, where critical thinking about these "general fees" is frowned upon, because when you graduate from a university that doesn't encourage oversight on spending that serves no purpose you put students like this into the world:
Bleeding Orange wrote:The IRS and the FG does not give us a choice as to where that money goes, and rightfully so. - as said
Maybe my many years of education are failing me, but last time I checked we were in a democracy. The difference between the federal government (which, by the way, includes a branch known as the IRS) and these colleges is that they encourage oversight. I can call my congressmen right now and talk to him on the phone if I want to, there's still 3 hours left in the day and they probably aren't doing much after the big horse slaughter bill vote yesterday. If I pose a good enough argument, supported by years and years of research reaching the same conclusion (as I have here) than the congressmen will probably buy it, realize that my idea is better for his constituents, form a coalition and -- before you know it -- a change in the taxes. I.e. if you voted for Bush you got what you wanted: lower taxes.

BGSU and all the colleges that fail to give their students any oversight over these fees, even fail to make what the fees are spent on readily available on the appropriate web sites, are teaching there students an awful lesson: that they have no say in their government. Maybe this is why we are in this whole problem in the first place?

If there was a breakdown of fees, such as a hyperlink right next to the fees schedule listed on the bursars web site, then students and parents could click on it and see that we are billed 13 times more money for athletics than we are for student organizations. Go figure. Novel idea. But, alas, it will remain hidden so as to quelch such uprisings among students and parents. That way these administrators can continue this misinformed spending.

This train of thought brings us to an important point that I have only touched on briefly in my small columns: Why do will this spending continue indefinitely? Why will it get worse and worse year after year? Well, first, as we are all well aware, the administrators and coaches at these universities are convinced -- despite all the evidence to the contrary -- that every dollar put into athletics will benefit the university in dramatic ways. We now know this is wrong for many reasons that I have listed and encouraged you to go check out.

So, yeah, they think it will benefit us students that are already in debt. Second, we have to be better than the next school so we have to continue spending more money.

Third, now that we are spending this much money, no administrator or coach is going to pick up the students' cause and cut this spending in half across all intercollegiate athletics programs at once (thereby leveling the playing field). Let's keep in mind that the only differences between my plan and the current plan is that 4x as many students can play, 2x as many sports will be available, and the cost will be 5x less for students -- no difference in how we perform or how much recognition/notice/sponsorship we get. no difference. no difference. no difference.

So, now that these coaches are making this much money they will do nothing to help us because it would cost them their salaries and they know it. They know that they are getting paid by us poor college students, the future of this country (the national security of which depends on education) and they will do nothing to help us. These are the people who know the NCAA best! The people that could very easily unite coaches together to cut this ludicrous spending. But they won't. They will leave it to everyone else.

"Everyone else" is either parents or students. Now, maybe parents would find time in their busy schedules to unite and lobby their colleges and the NCAA, but probably not. We have already discussed why students won't. Because they are totally unorganized and unmotivated. They don't even have the motivation to find out that they are paying $30,000 an athlete.

In order to end the arms race, there has to be a massive lobbying effort by the students or parents. That is the only way to cut down the number of scholarships and the exorbent size of the salaries. I am all for the facilities, the equipment, even the cost of the programs, but when it comes to spending $300,000 so we can recruit the better footbal coach I am out damn it. Out. I say the NCAA sets maximums all at once for the whole division and in the end we will have a level playing field for all times and a complete end to the athletics arms race.

Next, I would like to comment on what Warthog said. First of all, in neither of my columns have I suggested that we eliminate sports. I realized when I re-read it today that I may have come across as saying that athletics serves absolutely no benefit at all. This is not true. I only meant that the wasteful spending serves no benefit. For those who participate and are still able to get in the learning they should be getting out of college, athletics will serve many benefits. It will keep them healthy, improve their teamworking skills, build their confidence, and probably a few other things I am forgetting. Some of them (even under my plan) will receive full scholarships that will make it easier to succeed once they get out of college. So, anyways, providing for athletics competition between colleges does serve as a benefit to the participants. It also improves school spirit and is a source of entertainment for millions every weekend. But spending $13 million on pigskin, uniforms, players and coaches is obviously a waste of money. Someone said on here that there were no "$40,000 toilet seats." You're right abotu that (as far as I know). However, there are $30,000+ college athletes. That is just wrong, especially when you consider who is footing the bill: students that don't even wish to attend the games or can't (because they are working to pay off that money they were billed).

So, warthog, I don't think we should abolish sports. I think we should only be charging students about $50 a semester, instead of $250. And even then, I think we could still offer those students free admission.

Also, warthog, I already touched on your other point: students should have oversight on what a public institution charges its students and spends its money on. I know you were raised in the Soviet Union where things like that never occured, but this is the U.S. and we don't have to keep our mouths shut. We can say if we feel money is being wasted. And by the way, all students and in fact all citizens benefit dramatically from every dime that is being spent on education. They benefit in multiple ways. I am not going to get real deep, but every dollar that is spent on education (even if they aren't enrolled in that particular program) increases the GDP, the per-capita income rate, lowers taxes and raises intelligence.

And then there is ZiggyZoomba who said:
ZiggyZoomba wrote:Hyperbole, thy name is youth....
While I agree tuition prices are out of hand, to compare it to killing via terrorism is just... well... it's apples and oranges. And, based upon his arguments, we can extrapolate that athletes are terrorists. ;-) I thought Maurice Clarett was the only one... I guess they ALL are! :P
Even though I thought the joke (athletes are terrorists) was funny and laughed a good laugh, there is still something important for me to expand upon here: education is vitally important to our national security.

As you know, american maunual labor isn't worth a damn anymore. For instance, all the levi's jeans (an american product) are made in other countries because the labor is much, much cheaper thereby increasing our profits by leaps and bounds. This is a practice that will continue, tariffs or not (tariffs, by the way are a bad idea because they are a crutch for a dead issue).

The reason, though, that levi's jeans are so popular all over the world is due to the degree-holding laborers at levi's HQ that market those jeans all over the world.

If, as it is projected to happen, the price of higher education in Ohio raises to $86,547 a year by 2028, college students will either have to have extremely rich parents, great scholarships or a s**t-ton of loans. None of those options, in my opinion, will lead us to the number of degree-holders we will need to keep our economy afloat the way it is today.

So, we go back to the breadlines of the 1920s. And are nation will become weaker and weaker until, one day, the ever-powerful nation of China or India, or a bunch of countries in the middle east decide they want our oil or just want to do away with us because they have wanted to for years. And if those (hypothetical) invaders don't kill us, the extreme separation between the classes and the lack of jobs will. When our grandkids are in those lines, ziggyzoomba, will you regret that we charged students $250 a semester so we could feel a measilyy 460 student athletes at a cost of $30,000 per athlete?

I will briefly pass over Rightupinthere's comments, because I basically have the same response to those as i do to Falcon52s': my arguments are emotionally charged for two reasons. The first is that I do want to excite students and get them to read my column. By getting them to read the paper I have accomplished something that most fail to do. I have encouraged them to get involved in their community, to make them feel for the first time in their lives that they actually can have an impact on the community around them no matter how difficult and daunting politicians and other leaders seem to make it. Second, I am emotionally charged because I am several thousand dollars in debt and the money was wasted, it was put into a program that does to little with too much.

The last point I want to cover is one that I will have to argue for the rest of my life. I am not out to make a name for myself. I am a public servant that is out to spread the news. Many of you don't realize it, because you also feel you have no control over your communities, but what I am doing is empowering individuals with information they need to know. Yes, despite what you people say, it is vitally important that we look and re-look how these funds are spent at these very important institutions. I can't believe that anyone would suggest that $8.5 million being charged to students shouldn't have single person give it a look and decide whether it is right. In actuality, this is the marketplace of ideas. That is how democracy works, the more input the better. And that is why I wrote this column.

It is not an article, but a column. That is an important distinction to make, because one is an objective view of the facts (the BG News has covered athletics spending before) the other is a fact-based opinion.

If I wanted to make a name for myself I would have picked a unique topic, not one that has been given over and over again. As I noted here, there are many books that utilize well-researched, statistically-analyzed studies to show that this spending is robbing this country of its future. MULTIPLE STUDIES, MULTIPLE BOOKS, MULTIPLE ARTICLES, and MULTIPLE COLUMNS. I am doing this because I want to get the word out. I want students to at least know what is going on. That is why I wrote the column. The "get my name out there columns" are still to come and (hopefully) will be published in papers across the country.

Peace.
User avatar
1987alum
Noah's Dad
Noah's Dad
Posts: 7691
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:54 pm
Location: Philly

Re: REPLIES TO VARIOUS COMMENTS

Post by 1987alum »

SmurK wrote:In order to end the arms race, there has to be a massive lobbying effort by the students or parents. That is the only way to cut down the number of scholarships and the exorbent size of the salaries. I am all for the facilities, the equipment, even the cost of the programs, but when it comes to spending $300,000 so we can recruit the better footbal coach I am out damn it. Out. I say the NCAA sets maximums all at once for the whole division and in the end we will have a level playing field for all times and a complete end to the athletics arms race.
Thanks for the clarification on your thought process. As for the quote above, I'm sure you realize how unrealistic this expectation is due to free market forces.
Hey, look at me! I'm all over the InterWebs!
Facebook ~ Twitter @ CoachKarlPA ~ LinkedIn
User avatar
hammb
The Stabber of Cherries
The Stabber of Cherries
Posts: 14333
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:21 am
Location: Bowling Green

Re: REPLIES TO VARIOUS COMMENTS

Post by hammb »

1987alum wrote:
SmurK wrote:In order to end the arms race, there has to be a massive lobbying effort by the students or parents. That is the only way to cut down the number of scholarships and the exorbent size of the salaries. I am all for the facilities, the equipment, even the cost of the programs, but when it comes to spending $300,000 so we can recruit the better footbal coach I am out damn it. Out. I say the NCAA sets maximums all at once for the whole division and in the end we will have a level playing field for all times and a complete end to the athletics arms race.
Thanks for the clarification on your thought process. As for the quote above, I'm sure you realize how unrealistic this expectation is due to free market forces.
Socialism would be sweet.
SmurK
Egg
Egg
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:06 pm
Location: Bowling Green, OH
Contact:

Some of the books to check out.

Post by SmurK »

Here is some of the books for those who think my facts are bogus:

"Game of Life"
"Beer and Circus"
"Air Ball"
"Hundred Yard Lie"

Jacobs4Heisman, there is not evidence. That is why you are not digging it up. Come on. Try me. Just do it. Don't come on here claiming there is because there is not. Not a single shred. On one side you have hundreds of well-done studies. On the other end you have nothing. Please, be my guest to bring some facts on to your side. They could use it. No one on this thread has stated any. Would you pleeeeeaaaassseee bring some facts (on both knees praying that you will)??? Pleassseeee????
User avatar
BGDrew
Peregrine
Peregrine
Posts: 6355
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:11 pm
Contact:

Re: REPLIES TO VARIOUS COMMENTS

Post by BGDrew »

SmurK wrote:You all must have graduated from colleges like BGSU, where critical thinking about these "general fees" is frowned upon, because when you graduate from a university that doesn't encourage oversight on spending that serves no purpose you put students like this into the world:
If you do not truly value the education you are being given, you are more than welcome to transfer.
Check out our new BGSU hockey site: http://www.bgsuhockey.com
User avatar
Warthog
Freak Wanna-be!!
Freak Wanna-be!!
Posts: 7039
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:57 am
Location: Bowling Green, OH

Re: REPLIES TO VARIOUS COMMENTS

Post by Warthog »

SmurK wrote:I know you were raised in the Soviet Union
How did you figure that out? I have worked so hard to lose my accent. FWIW, my real name is Vladimir Sergey Warthog.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools."
- Ernest Hemingway
User avatar
Jacobs4Heisman
a.k.a. Capt. Rex Kramer
a.k.a. Capt. Rex Kramer
Posts: 7889
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:59 pm
Location: Aliquippa, PA

Re: Some of the books to check out.

Post by Jacobs4Heisman »

SmurK wrote:Here is some of the books for those who think my facts are bogus:

"Game of Life"
"Beer and Circus"
"Air Ball"
"Hundred Yard Lie"

Jacobs4Heisman, there is not evidence. That is why you are not digging it up. Come on. Try me. Just do it. Don't come on here claiming there is because there is not. Not a single shred. On one side you have hundreds of well-done studies. On the other end you have nothing. Please, be my guest to bring some facts on to your side. They could use it. No one on this thread has stated any. Would you pleeeeeaaaassseee bring some facts (on both knees praying that you will)??? Pleassseeee????

Just off the top of my head, you said that programs lose money on athletics. Check the budgets for what D1-A programs spend on football, and what they bring in. BG might not be doing very well in that regard, but a lot of universities are making an absolute killing.

Transfer has stated many times about the kind of advertising we get from out national TV broadcasts. That kind of advertising and brand positioning is invaluable, and would be absolutely impossible to obtain otherwise from a cost standpoint.


If your main goal is to become a respected journalist, I really think you're going about it the wrong way. If your main goal is to stir the pot, have at it.
Roll Along!
User avatar
Warthog
Freak Wanna-be!!
Freak Wanna-be!!
Posts: 7039
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:57 am
Location: Bowling Green, OH

Re: REPLIES TO VARIOUS COMMENTS

Post by Warthog »

SmurK wrote:Even though I thought the joke (athletes are terrorists) was funny and laughed a good laugh, there is still something important for me to expand upon here: education is vitally important to our national security.

As you know, american maunual labor isn't worth a damn anymore. For instance, all the levi's jeans (an american product) are made in other countries because the labor is much, much cheaper thereby increasing our profits by leaps and bounds. This is a practice that will continue, tariffs or not (tariffs, by the way are a bad idea because they are a crutch for a dead issue).

The reason, though, that levi's jeans are so popular all over the world is due to the degree-holding laborers at levi's HQ that market those jeans all over the world.

If, as it is projected to happen, the price of higher education in Ohio raises to $86,547 a year by 2028, college students will either have to have extremely rich parents, great scholarships or a s**t-ton of loans. None of those options, in my opinion, will lead us to the number of degree-holders we will need to keep our economy afloat the way it is today.

So, we go back to the breadlines of the 1920s. And are nation will become weaker and weaker until, one day, the ever-powerful nation of China or India, or a bunch of countries in the middle east decide they want our oil or just want to do away with us because they have wanted to for years. And if those (hypothetical) invaders don't kill us, the extreme separation between the classes and the lack of jobs will. When our grandkids are in those lines, ziggyzoomba, will you regret that we charged students $250 a semester so we could feel a measilyy 460 student athletes at a cost of $30,000 per athlete?
Wow, are you really arguing that a $250 genral fee that is not itemized for students will lead to the fall of Western Civilation? Call my Crazy Warthog, but that's quite a leap you are making.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools."
- Ernest Hemingway
User avatar
1987alum
Noah's Dad
Noah's Dad
Posts: 7691
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:54 pm
Location: Philly

Re: REPLIES TO VARIOUS COMMENTS

Post by 1987alum »

BGDrew wrote:
SmurK wrote:You all must have graduated from colleges like BGSU, where critical thinking about these "general fees" is frowned upon, because when you graduate from a university that doesn't encourage oversight on spending that serves no purpose you put students like this into the world:
If you do not truly value the education you are being given, you are more than welcome to transfer.
I'm not one to say "my country (or in this case, school), love it or leave it," but SmurK's ferverent concern about athletic spending has me wondering - how much of a factor did this weigh in his choice of school? Was there no other school with decent credentials in his chosen field that allocates less of its revenue to athletics?

That being said ...

To SmurK: Have you reached out to the athletic department on this issue? To Dr. Ribeau? As a journalist, I'd be intrigued to hear what they have to say on your points and, in particular, the data you use to back them. If they cannot refute your stance with credible evidence and logic, that would only strengthen your position. And engaging in a dialogue with the "other side" adds to the credibility of the discussion.
Hey, look at me! I'm all over the InterWebs!
Facebook ~ Twitter @ CoachKarlPA ~ LinkedIn
User avatar
1987alum
Noah's Dad
Noah's Dad
Posts: 7691
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:54 pm
Location: Philly

Re: REPLIES TO VARIOUS COMMENTS

Post by 1987alum »

Warthog wrote:Wow, are you really arguing that a $250 genral fee that is not itemized for students will lead to the fall of Western Civilation? Call my Crazy Warthog, but that's quite a leap you are making.
Crazy Warthog.

:P
Hey, look at me! I'm all over the InterWebs!
Facebook ~ Twitter @ CoachKarlPA ~ LinkedIn
User avatar
TG1996
Peregrine
Peregrine
Posts: 12708
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:27 am
Location: Indianapolis
Contact:

Post by TG1996 »

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX, MAN!!!!
"I don't believe I can name a coach, anywhere, anytime, anyhow, who did it better than Doyt Perry."
-1955 BG Assistant Bo Schembechler

BGSUsports.com - Where ESPN.com goes for BG history.
Post Reply