Rojas Leaves

Warthog · Post by **Warthog** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:28 am

I haven't gone and looked for more specific ones, but I know on several occasions Brandon mentioned that 'Rojas just need to grow up'. I'll have to look at the Blade archives for specific evidence.

PGY Tiercel · Post by **PGY Tiercel** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:34 am

Yeah I see your point, that is a harsh comment about an 18year old kid. I'm sure it was mean in a football sense, But FWIW I tell my 6yr old she needs to grow up a lot too.

Back to the touchbacks, 2 out of 38. That seems well below top kicker performance.

UK Peregrine · Post by **UK Peregrine** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:39 am

I don't know, I read Brandon's kicking comments as an off the cuff response to say that if these top-recruit kickers and punters had performed anywhere near the expectations the coaches and fans had for them, we wouldn't even had this conversation. I see nothing wrong with saying what he said. The numbers don't lie. They both under-perfomed and if they aren't men enough to realize this and try to get better as a result, then I say don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Now someone tell me (and I'm sure someone will try) that they don't deserve at least at little challenging from the coaching staff based on these numbers.

Rojas was 94th in the nation of 96 punters listed in punt average and that's without three of his blocks factored in.
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp ... t&site=org

BG ranked 118 out of 119 teams in team net punt average. Net you say, well our regular punt average puts BG at 119th.
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp ... t&site=org

Ellis isn't even listed in the top 100 kickers in the NCAA and only had two touchbacks. Two touchbacks! For comparison purposes John Deraney from NC State had 40 of his 75 kicks for touchbacks when he was RS Freshman.
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp ... g&site=org

Just a few numbers to pounder in a debate rampant with conjecture.

Warthog · Post by **Warthog** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:42 am

PGY Tiercel wrote:Yeah I see your point, that is a harsh comment about an 18year old kid. I'm sure it was mean in a football sense, But FWIW I tell my 6yr old she needs to grow up a lot too.

Back to the touchbacks, 2 out of 38. That seems well below top kicker performance.

Where did you get the touchback data? I tried looking at the NCAA website and couldn't find where they kept track of that. I'm curious, but not curious enough to look up each team's individual performance.

My kids are 13, 10, & 9 and I tell them to grow up too. But that is in regard to a behavioral/emotional issue. Not once have I found it appropriate to tell them to 'grow up' in relation to their athletic performance. I coached my son's football team and I may have thought there were some kids that needed to 'grow up', but simply in an emotional sense. Unless Rojas was actually crying in the locker room, I don't understand what the coach's point is of saying he needs to 'grow up'.

Jacobs4Heisman · Post by **Jacobs4Heisman** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:50 am

UK Peregrine wrote:I don't know, I read Brandon's kicking comments as an off the cuff response to say that if these top-recruit kickers and punters had performed anywhere near the expectations the coaches and fans had for them, we wouldn't even had this conversation. I see nothing wrong with saying what he said. The numbers don't lie. They both under-perfomed and if they aren't men enough to realize this and try to get better as a result, then I say don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Now someone tell me (and I'm sure someone will try) that they don't deserve at least at little challenging from the coaching staff based on these numbers.

Rojas was 94th in the nation of 96 punters listed in punt average and that's without three of his blocks factored in.
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp ... t&site=org

BG ranked 118 out of 119 teams in team net punt average. Net you say, well our regular punt average puts BG at 119th.
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp ... t&site=org

Ellis isn't even listed in the top 100 kickers in the NCAA and only had two touchbacks. Two touchbacks! For comparison purposes John Deraney from NC State had 40 of his 75 kicks for touchbacks when he was RS Freshman.
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp ... g&site=org

Just a few numbers to pounder in a debate rampant with conjecture.

No doubt they needed some challenge and guidance. But, if you'd care to debate the intelligence and worth of challenging freshman kickers from over 1,000 miles away in public, as opposed to one-on-one in private or in the locker-room, where almost all individual college player performance-based criticisms should take place, I'm all ears.

I don't know if Rojas left due to Brandon, but I think it's obvious that Brandon made very bad decisions in regard to his public handling of two freshman kickers surrounded by awful special teams units. It's not like this is the first time he's publicly criticized individual players, or the first time a player has left at least partially because of it.

PGY Tiercel · Post by **PGY Tiercel** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:54 am

I read those comments as Rojas needs to grow up to college football expectations. He needs to be more aware of the rush, get his kicks off quicker and "grow" into a college kicker. So you've never felt your athletes just didn't need more time to improve, even "grow", as a player. You have never seen potential in a kid that wasn't doing what you know he is capable of, just hadn't got there yet. Brandon might have chosen odd wording, but that how I read it.

Jacobs4Heisman · Post by **Jacobs4Heisman** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:56 am

PGY Tiercel wrote:I read those comments as Rojas needs to grow up to college football expectations. He needs to be more aware of the rush, get his kicks off quicker and "grow" into a college kicker. So you've never felt your athletes just didn't need more time to improve, even "grow", as a player. You have never seen potential in a kid that wasn't doing what you know he is capable of, just hadn't got there yet. Brandon might have chosen odd wording, but that how I read it.

The big question is, how did Ellis and Rojas read it?

Dayons_Den · Post by **Dayons_Den** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:18 pm

UK Peregrine wrote:I don't know, I read Brandon's kicking comments as an off the cuff response to say that if these top-recruit kickers and punters had performed anywhere near the expectations the coaches and fans had for them, we wouldn't even had this conversation. I see nothing wrong with saying what he said. The numbers don't lie. They both under-perfomed and if they aren't men enough to realize this and try to get better as a result, then I say don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Now someone tell me (and I'm sure someone will try) that they don't deserve at least at little challenging from the coaching staff based on these numbers.

Rojas was 94th in the nation of 96 punters listed in punt average and that's without three of his blocks factored in.
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp ... t&site=org

BG ranked 118 out of 119 teams in team net punt average. Net you say, well our regular punt average puts BG at 119th.
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp ... t&site=org

Ellis isn't even listed in the top 100 kickers in the NCAA and only had two touchbacks. Two touchbacks! For comparison purposes John Deraney from NC State had 40 of his 75 kicks for touchbacks when he was RS Freshman.
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp ... g&site=org

Just a few numbers to pounder in a debate rampant with conjecture.

The numbers certainly don't lie, but they also don't tell the story of muddy fields, gapped punt formations with little protection, and field goal attempts of 40 yards against the number one team in the nation with only 10 players on the field.

Take the FIU game, Brandon's quote was "We made some big plays in the kicking game. It was great to see (Alonso) Rojas boom a couple and it was nice to see (Sean) Ellis make a couple of field goals. You can see they have talent, they just need to gain confidence and consistency."

When you look at the kickers at their bare minimum they are above average kickers for true freshman. Again, the fact that Brandon had confidence enough in Ellis to trot him out at the Horseshoe speaks volumes to the amount of talent Brandon perceived him to have.

I think the system let the kickers down more often than the kickers let the team down.

Shoot, people on here are wishing Suisham had eligibility left. Those that were around this website when it was orange will recall Suisham took a beating on here during his sophomore and in to his junior seasons. He was not very good early in his career. He missed extra points. He wasn't good from beyond 20 yards out and he rarely kicked deep. He had a real coming of age towards the end of his junior and through his senior kicking campaign.

hammb · Post by **hammb** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:40 pm

As I said in the preseason our expectations were too high for freshmen kickers. To expect them to come in and perform even average was likely asking way too much. Kickers, like all other positions, rarely perform well that soon. I remember watching Mike Nugent as a Freshman...he was godawful.

Still we asked them to do the duties. And we asked them to perform at the top of their game with a team around them that was totally clueless in how to protect them. That's asking a lot of 18 year olds.

Then our coach seems to imply that the reason we couldn't cover kicks was because they weren't going out of the endzone. I don't know if he was trying to be funny or what with his quote, but the implied meaning could very easily be taken as a dig on his kicker. Given that he publically called out Corey Partridge earlier this year, and publically called out Omar Jacobs 2 years ago, why should this come as a surprise?

Gregg Brandon is a very nice guy. I have no problem talking to him, and he will gladly answer e-mails, etc. Unfortunately he has no clue how to talk to the media, and judging by the results he's not a very good football coach. Me, being the results oriented guy I am, would be a lot happier with a coach who wasn't so nice, but got the job done. Apparently the BG athletic dept. disagrees.

Flipper · Post by **Flipper** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:02 pm

The touchback data is greatly distorted by our reliance on "moon ball " kick offs. The reason why we use them is an open issue...

Warthog · Post by **Warthog** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:10 pm

UK Peregrine wrote:Ellis isn't even listed in the top 100 kickers in the NCAA
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp ... g&site=org

Point of clarification. The stats you listed are based on field goals made per game. Sean only attempted 9 FGs all season, two were blocked and one was the Miama fiasco. Even if he would have made the other six (he made 4), he still wouldn't have made that list.

Warthog · Post by **Warthog** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:14 pm

PGY Tiercel wrote:I read those comments as Rojas needs to grow up to college football expectations. He needs to be more aware of the rush, get his kicks off quicker and "grow" into a college kicker. So you've never felt your athletes just didn't need more time to improve, even "grow", as a player. You have never seen potential in a kid that wasn't doing what you know he is capable of, just hadn't got there yet. Brandon might have chosen odd wording, but that how I read it.

Are you kidding? We won 1 game. I think 19 out of 19 of our players needed to "grow" as football players!

Seriously, to me, there is a HUGE difference in saying a player needs to "grow" and a player needs to "grow up". The first means they need to keep working hard in practice, study the playbook/film, work in the weight room, etc to become a better player. The second one refers strictly to their mental capabilites. Brandon used the "grow up" phrase on many occasions when refering to his freshman kickers.

Warthog · Post by **Warthog** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:27 pm

Flipper wrote:The touchback data is greatly distorted by our reliance on "moon ball " kick offs. The reason why we use them is an open issue...

Logic would lead to one thinking that. But we were still 112 in kickoff coverage.

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp ... f&site=org

You would think that popping up the kickoffs would help the coverage team get down and make a play. But it looks like we kicked and short and couldn't cover. I bet our opponents led Div I-A in average field position after a kickoff.

There is no way you can put that all on the kicker.

UK Peregrine · Post by **UK Peregrine** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:41 pm

Warthog wrote:
UK Peregrine wrote:Ellis isn't even listed in the top 100 kickers in the NCAA
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp ... g&site=org
Point of clarification. The stats you listed are based on field goals made per game. Sean only attempted 9 FGs all season, two were blocked and one was the Miama fiasco. Even if he would have made the other six (he made 4), he still wouldn't have made that list.

Believe it or not, but I did not do the NCAA kick statistics this year, which stink by the way. I really wanted touchback data, but like you, I don't have the time to look up every kickers' touchback stats. I realized that they were arranged in descending order for field goals made per game, it's the best I could find for kicking stats. The fact is Sean did attempt nine FGs. He missed a shorter field goal than what Miami's field goal kicker made in the mud. And I don't know how you can simply throw out blocks. The fact is he didn't get the kick off fast or high enough to overcome any shortcomings BG may or may not had in the blocking scheme. Where the blame lays, I don't know and really don't care. Stats tell a limited picture of how things are, as a scientist I realize this probably more than most. That limited picture does show Seam at .444 FG%, that would be good for #99 out of the 100 listed. Take it for what its worth and make your own conclusions from the data.

As for the public criticism J4H speaks of. I say people are criticized publicly all of the time in the political, pop culture and sports worlds. You either learn to swim with the big fish or you drown. College is about learning to survive and yes thrive in a cutthroat world. I see no reason as to why these kids need to be coddled and told everything will be okay. Suck it up and perform and let bygones be bygones. Not everyone is going to like you or be your friend, and sometime people say these things to see how kids respond. Whether Brandon intentionally did this or not, again I don't know. By from my very limited perspective in terms of how the team is operated, it appears that both Corey and Omar seemed to have learned how to swim when criticized. As to how others respond to criticism, we will just have to wait and see how these kids respond.

Jacobs4Heisman · Post by **Jacobs4Heisman** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:20 pm

Omar did learn how to swim....right to the NFL a year early.

And I almost always agree with you about this -- players as well as young men should be able to handle constructive criticism. I think freshman kickers from the other side of the country should be one exception though. You need to be a little more careful in this instance, which is illustrated by the fact that neither are still with us.

And the things GB says are not like things other coaches say in public when they're trying to motivate their players. A lot of the time, it feels as if GB is distinctly trying to throw kids under the bus. He isn't of course, he's just deflecting blame from himself, which is bad enough. However, I don't think his players see it that way.