Eat it BCS!!!!!!!!!!!Boise State National Champions!!!!

[Flipper]

Do you have a condensed version of that post? My ADD meds haven't kicked in yet and there's just no way I'm hacking through another version of Moby Dick

[NWLB]

In the time it took to type that, the other normal arguments were repeated again. Minor bowls live, more money with 16 teams, congress, the NCAA presidents, etc.

Minor bowls would struggle and often die, taking away chances from teams like those in the MAC. Teams with no serious claim on this earth to being the best, would get put into a playoff they can't win. No system that includes all teams that could make a argument to be in a playoff could be accommodated, and thus no system would be fair people will argue. No system that accommodates all those teams with an argument could be made workable or desirable. In the end, you have to deal with subjective selections, and that undermines the alleged point of a playoff from the start. The money, in a sanctioned NCAA event would have to be divided such that it would lessen the appeal if a regular season game, or two, were eliminated. The conferences with bowl games remaining would repeat the process that existed years ago, prior to the MAC developing hard fought bowl tie-ins.

Make a claim, and there are ample reasons why it doesn't hold up after the gee-whiz-that-would-work buzz fades. And that, as much as any other attempt to scape-goat the presidents, stand as to why we don't have a playoff.

I applaud the presidents for having the balls to not cave into the idea.

[NWLB]

Do you have a condensed version of that post? My ADD meds haven't kicked in yet and there's just no way I'm hacking through another version of Moby Dick

Dayon's Den will create a comic version of the thread for you. Lots of colors and stuff!

[Jacobs4Heisman]

In the time it took to type that, the other normal arguments were repeated again. Minor bowls live, more money with 16 teams, congress, the NCAA presidents, etc.

Minor bowls would struggle and often die, taking away chances from teams like those in the MAC. Teams with no serious claim on this earth to being the best, would get put into a playoff they can't win. No system that includes all teams that could make a argument to be in a playoff could be accommodated, and thus no system would be fair people will argue. No system that accommodates all those teams with an argument could be made workable or desirable. In the end, you have to deal with subjective selections, and that undermines the alleged point of a playoff from the start. The money, in a sanctioned NCAA event would have to be divided such that it would lessen the appeal if a regular season game, or two, were eliminated. The conferences with bowl games remaining would repeat the process that existed years ago, prior to the MAC developing hard fought bowl tie-ins.

Make a claim, and there are ample reasons why it doesn't hold up after the gee-whiz-that-would-work buzz fades. And that, as much as any other attempt to scape-goat the presidents, stand as to why we don't have a playoff.

I applaud the presidents for having the balls to not cave into the idea.

I must have missed the ample reasons. All I see are more far-fetched assumptions being stated as fact.

As simply as I can put it -- it's my opinion that college football is about 2 things -- money and entertainment. It's also my opinion that both values would be greatly enhanced by a playoff system, so I think it will happen in the not-so-distant future.

[Flipper]

Thanks...pictures are a really big help

[Warthog]

Dispite the urge, I am going to follow Hammb's lead and not get into this discussion. If the fact that like every post in this thread, except for his, is in support of a playoff has no influence on Nathan's thought process, then further discussion is useless.

I think the Colts should have been declared champs of the NFL last year.

[TG1996]

I think the Colts should have been declared champs of the NFL last year.

You and about 600,000 folks in Central Indiana who less than a decade ago were heard saying "Hey ma! Why done does that thar brown basketball bounce funny?"

After the Colts lost to Houston last week, and some Colts "fans" were being miserable over it, I said "at least they got that automatic bye into the Super Bowl in August, right?"

They didn't think I was funny. That or they didn't get it.

[Globetrotter]

I prefer the marginal subjectivity of an inclusive playoff system to the extreme subjectivity of a system based on some computers and pre-season guesswork.

Naming the best team will remain a subjective thing. A playoff only creates another title. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to see more football. But don't call a playoff what it isn't. There is nothing wrong with wanting more football, as I noted in the other thread. It is simply my point of view that having a playoff does not do enough to warrant changes that would have to come to accommodate it.

Wth only 16 teams making the playoffs, they would not be all inclusive making the playoffs that much better at naming the winner. Including all 11 conferences makes the big boys share money. That is a good thing.

I am very confused why you would have to cut games? There are currenlty very few games in December. Only the teams that win would have long extended seasons and the argument that those fans would not travel, for a chance to see their team win a playoff is absurd. You would not be traveling every year.

Remember last year in College basketball, Pro Football, Baseball, Hockey and every other sport in the world when two teams in the same league went undefeated. You dont? Oh yeah because it CANT HAppen.

[Globetrotter]

[quote="hammb"]We've had this argument every single year for the past 5 on here. The problem is Nathan refuses to accept the premise that a playoff crowns a true champion. He always says, it's just a "playoff champion", and not a measure of who is truly the best.

Technically, I suppose, he's correct. However, it is widely accepted that an end of season playoff system is the best way to crown a season champion. It is used in every major sport other than D1A college football. I have never once heard anyone clamor that the Stanley cup champ was not the "true champ" or that the Super Bowl winner was "only the playoff champ." A playoff is generally accepted as the very best method to crown an undisputed champion for the season. You create your seedings based on a regular season body of work, then settle it through a tournament.

I have come to realize that the argument is pointless on this website because your argument for a playoff hinges on the premise that a playoff is a justifiable way to crown a champion. Nathan doeesn't agree with that premise, for whatever reason. If you go with the thought process that a playoff is still not a real champion then it's easy to see his opinion of "why bother with a playoff."

Personally, I think it's ludicrous, but I've gotten to the point where everything to type in this argument has been typed. You're not going to

I dont post solely for Nathan

[Globetrotter]

We don't have a playoff because no one has put together a financial package that makes the thing work.

You guys are looking at this from the wrong side of things. You want to find a way to determine a Champion. They want to make $$$. The BCS gives them the $$$ and a close enough version of a champion to make it work.
When someone can find the right amount of money...we'll have a playoff.

Regarding the larger question of what a playoff decides....in this country we decide our champs with playoffs. It's always been that way it always will be that way. When we were kids and said "next touchdown wins" we were deciding things with a playoff. NWLB thinks otherwise because he is a commie. He can kiss my red, white and blue ass!!!

Now...is there anyone here with a medical background who can explain to me why my ass might be red white and blue? I ate some kind of questionable looking mussels on New Year's eve...could that be it?

The Bill Gates/Microsoft College football tournament.

As far as the money goes, you are exactly right. Right now the presidents of OSU and others dont want to share.

Some would say who can blame them. I would look at Wellington Mara and his example int he NFL and say...I can blame them.

[hammb]

I dont post solely for Nathan

That's fine, but it seems to me that he'll be your most vociferous voice for the opposition. Generally, I think, most around here are open to the thoughts of a well conceived playoff system. Nathan is the one guy who will engage in this argument with you.

Plus he'll do it again next year, and the year after that, and the year after that. And in the end none of us will ever change the other side's mind.

[Globetrotter]

I dont post solely for Nathan

That's fine, but it seems to me that he'll be your most vociferous voice for the opposition. Generally, I think, most around here are open to the thoughts of a well conceived playoff system. Nathan is the one guy who will engage in this argument with you.

Plus he'll do it again next year, and the year after that, and the year after that. And in the end none of us will ever change the other side's mind.

What I got out of this thread is that, most people want a playoff and money will make there be one eventually. Or Congress and an anti trust suit.

[Jacobs4Heisman]

I dont post solely for Nathan

That's fine, but it seems to me that he'll be your most vociferous voice for the opposition. Generally, I think, most around here are open to the thoughts of a well conceived playoff system. Nathan is the one guy who will engage in this argument with you.

Plus he'll do it again next year, and the year after that, and the year after that. And in the end none of us will ever change the other side's mind.

What I got out of this thread is that, most people want a playoff and money will make there be one eventually. Or Congress and an anti trust suit.

This is where I come down on the "will there be a playoff?" conversation. We've been badly mixing the "will" and "should" arguments in this thread, and they are two entirely different balls of wax.

The place in NWLB's argument where I take the most umbrage, is that he is making grand and often wild assumptions, and putting them forward as incontrovertible evidence. I also think he's delusional in terms of the amount of support for either side. It's really difficult to have a meaningful discussion when each side is working with totally different premises.

The fact that he is the only, and I mean only, person I've EVER come across that is so opposed to a playoff, makes me feel even more strongly that we'll get there eventually.

[NWLB]

This is true of other topics, but people seem to think a person pushing hard for a point of view, is an affront to them, since they think they are right. People have more recently knocked me for what they say is my pushing a personal point of view, assumption, or assertion as fact. It is a nice fall-back position in this kind of loose debate, when one wants to end a debate or counter a point of view, however it does neither.

Because I'm the loudest, doesn't mean I am the only one. Generally you don't stand up and yell "shoot me" in a firefight/debate such as this. More than a few people "get" the approach I'm taking, and haver otherwise said as much in the past. We have enough redundant debate here, most of the players have long since retired from the battlefield.

I am simply making the case for my views, which I am not alone in having. And in any case, try not to think I don't have a sense of humor about most of this, or that I take this THAT seriously. Its a debate. A lively, if never-ending one. The debate won't end. There are two sides about as firmly set in their ways as they can be. If nothing else, we've started to get much better at boiling the debate down to a quicker and more concise format. It used to take us a month or so to get what now takes us only two days!

And don't worry, I'm on vacation from Jan. 4th until Jan 13th. So you can run rampant and spread the vile talk of playoffs and such.

[NWLB]

I dont post solely for Nathan

That's fine, but it seems to me that he'll be your most vociferous voice for the opposition. Generally, I think, most around here are open to the thoughts of a well conceived playoff system. Nathan is the one guy who will engage in this argument with you.

Plus he'll do it again next year, and the year after that, and the year after that. And in the end none of us will ever change the other side's mind.

What I got out of this thread is that, most people want a playoff and money will make there be one eventually. Or Congress and an anti trust suit.

This is where I come down on the "will there be a playoff?" conversation. We've been badly mixing the "will" and "should" arguments in this thread, and they are two entirely different balls of wax.

The place in NWLB's argument where I take the most umbrage, is that he is making grand and often wild assumptions, and putting them forward as incontrovertible evidence. I also think he's delusional in terms of the amount of support for either side. It's really difficult to have a meaningful discussion when each side is working with totally different premises.

The fact that he is the only, and I mean only, person I've EVER come across that is so opposed to a playoff, makes me feel even more strongly that we'll get there eventually.

Ah, and people with no case studies, no evidence, and only sports radio rhetoric saying a playoff is wanted more than what we have, will make more money, and solve all the debates is an assertion of fact? And trust me, I'm not the ONLY person that feels this way, which in your stating such, is exactly the kind of thing you accuse me of, which undermines your point of view in turn.

And read through the past years of debate. More than a few people have since said, in plain terms, they don't feel the need to jump-into the debate. The have less time on their hands, and are content to let me ride this out on my own.

Be that as it may, as has been said a few times, we are not going to change the other sides mind, and its not an issue of one person against the world. You think we are closer to a playoff, and that it will happen. For my part, I think we are actually getting further away from a playoff, and regardless, it will never happen. Most people fall someplace in the middle.

But there is an emerging theme I detect, which I think is true. Both sides are effectively debating from starting points and on levels that just don't really mesh.