Big trouble at the U of T

[jacojdm]

Students worry charge gives Toledo a bad rap

I think that ship has already sailed.

[Globetrotter]

In other words, I'm not laying awake at night about it.

Schad, I'm not either, but you're missing my point. Let's say the McDougle thing ends @ UT. Many times, when you start to look for one thing, you find out about other things, even if they aren't directly connected or are even only connected a little. You and I can probably name a couple examples.

After that post, I had to do some things, but I was thinking about it more, and I do think I agree.

It could be that we have had point-shaving situations in this league that have been handled completely internally, but that are somewhat known or rumored about around the conference.

If a bunch of employees at Toledo's athletic department are about to be shown the door -- and Rocket fans are completely merciless right now, they want axes to fall, and they seem to much care that their football coach's nickname is "Toledo" -- then anything they might think they know about other programs could start spilling out.

I've got to feel for a fella like "Toledo" Tom. It is difficult to believe he would have known about or condoned what is being alleged in federal court, and yet his career could go up in smoke over this in a very big hurry.

He may be about to be thrown under a very, very big bus.

I think some one here are missing the point. If we had people point shaving we deserve to go down.

Globettrotter: this was a complaint alleged against a University of Toledo athlete recruiting other University of Toledo athletes to fix the outcomes of University of Toledo football and basketball games.

Can it get any more clear than that?

BG HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS!!! (per another post, the caps in this case indicate extreme anger and frustration)

*IF* our athletic department has been secretly building a elaborate network of tunnels underneath the campus to protect athletes against an impending swarm of attacking killer bees, we have a situation on our hands. Considering there's as much evidence of that as the evidence behind the borderline libelous hypothetical you presented, I'd say such talk is both ridiculous and highly irresponsible.

What in the world are you talking about? Do I need to explain the definition of if? There were several on here that stated that one of the negatives is that it may bring investigations on to us. My answer to that is, if we are clean it won't matter. I did not bring BG into it. Follow along better please.

[JoeFalcon]

In other words, I'm not laying awake at night about it.

Schad, I'm not either, but you're missing my point. Let's say the McDougle thing ends @ UT. Many times, when you start to look for one thing, you find out about other things, even if they aren't directly connected or are even only connected a little. You and I can probably name a couple examples.

After that post, I had to do some things, but I was thinking about it more, and I do think I agree.

It could be that we have had point-shaving situations in this league that have been handled completely internally, but that are somewhat known or rumored about around the conference.

If a bunch of employees at Toledo's athletic department are about to be shown the door -- and Rocket fans are completely merciless right now, they want axes to fall, and they seem to much care that their football coach's nickname is "Toledo" -- then anything they might think they know about other programs could start spilling out.

I've got to feel for a fella like "Toledo" Tom. It is difficult to believe he would have known about or condoned what is being alleged in federal court, and yet his career could go up in smoke over this in a very big hurry.

He may be about to be thrown under a very, very big bus.

I think some one here are missing the point. If we had people point shaving we deserve to go down.

Globettrotter: this was a complaint alleged against a University of Toledo athlete recruiting other University of Toledo athletes to fix the outcomes of University of Toledo football and basketball games.

Can it get any more clear than that?

BG HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS!!! (per another post, the caps in this case indicate extreme anger and frustration)

*IF* our athletic department has been secretly building a elaborate network of tunnels underneath the campus to protect athletes against an impending swarm of attacking killer bees, we have a situation on our hands. Considering there's as much evidence of that as the evidence behind the borderline libelous hypothetical you presented, I'd say such talk is both ridiculous and highly irresponsible.

What in the world are you talking about? Do I need to explain the definition of if? There were several on here that stated that one of the negatives is that it may bring investigations on to us. My answer to that is, if we are clean it won't matter. I did not bring BG into it. Follow along better please.

Uh, no. Nice try.

The wonderful thing about the "Quote" feature is that it allows one to cite the specific sentences that a poster has used and ferret out BS rather quickly. You never said anything coming close to "if we are clean it won't matter."

You said "If we had people point shaving we deserve to go down."

Strangely enough, you also raise the specter of BG cheating on the second page of the thread when you said "If we ever got busted for somthing like this it would set us back worse then Hiring Greg Brandon as head coach."

For whatever reason, you like to breezily and cavalierly opine on the possibilities of the BG athletic department getting brought down in a similarly massive cheating scandal. I find that both odd and incredibly irresponsible.

[rocketfootball]

I will also relish in the knowledge that no Toledo fan will be here for awhile.

Well I definitely have not read the entire thread and don't know if other UT fans have been here, but I am here. Why would this keep me from posting here? For one Toledo has been in trouble for things in the past and I have never said Toledo is clean. No program is clean. Unfortunately right now Toledo is a little dirtier and that is really because at least one individual got caught.

This sucks for UT, the MAC, and college sports in general. It's too bad and a pride-buster for many UT fans. But we will get through it, no doubt. And to guess on what really happened and what will happen is not a smart move at this time. All we know right now is there is no evidence that has been released to the public stating anyone played bad to shave points. They might have been propositioned and took gifts, but nothing has said they did play bad. Also, it only specifically mentions the GMAC Bowl in 2005, but we won the game 45-13. How were any points shaved in that game? Another question......how much money is being bet on these games that a UT football player was supposedly offered 10K to sit out one game????? That's a lot of dough for a game in the little old MAC.


I have a bad feeling that this is going to really be a black eye for Toledo and there will be more athletes named and possibly charged. But right now it is anyone's guess.

[Flipper]

I will also relish in the knowledge that no Toledo fan will be here for awhile.

Well I definitely have not read the entire thread and don't know if other UT fans have been here, but I am here. Why would this keep me from posting here? For one Toledo has been in trouble for things in the past and I have never said Toledo is clean. No program is clean. Unfortunately right now Toledo is a little dirtier and that is really because at least one individual got caught.

No...you're dirtier because at least one guy appears to be pretty dirty...

[rocketfootball]

I will also relish in the knowledge that no Toledo fan will be here for awhile.

Well I definitely have not read the entire thread and don't know if other UT fans have been here, but I am here. Why would this keep me from posting here? For one Toledo has been in trouble for things in the past and I have never said Toledo is clean. No program is clean. Unfortunately right now Toledo is a little dirtier and that is really because at least one individual got caught.

No...you're dirtier because at least one guy appears to be pretty dirty...

I'm not hear to argue. Toledo's in a lot of trouble right now, but I take it you didn't read the Cleveland Plain Dealer. There was a study done in 2003 and the results said that 43% of male collegiate student-athletes bet on college sports. It also said that just over 1% of collegiate football players admitted in the survey to attempting to point-shave and just over 2% of collegiate men's basketball players admitted in the survey to point-shaving.

Let's say a flat 1% on the football side and let's say a team has 100 players (85 scholarships are the limit, but most teams have over 100 players with walk-ons). With just using I-A football for instance, we have 119 teams so 11,900 football players. That comes out to 119 players in Division I-A that admit to attempting to point shave. Enough to fill more than one football team.

For basketball let's just say 12 players per team and even though I believe there are more let's just say 200 teams. That comes out to 48 players that admitted in a survey to point shaving. Enough to fill 4 teams.

Anyone that doesn't think this kind of stuff is happening other places and could happen just about anywhere is a very, very naive person. As a UT fan it sucks that this has been uncovered at UT and it hurts my pride and angers me. Even if it is happening elsewhere you don't want to see it happen at your school.

That said, my comment about Toledo being dirtier because at least one individual got caught is correct. He admitted to taking the gifts and so forth. Even though he has not been found guilty yet, yeah you know he is guilty of at least taking the bribes and gitfs. Sorry you don't feel that same way on this.

[Tricky_Falcon]

http://www.ncaabbs.com/forums/mac/phpbb ... hp?t=45483

[Globetrotter]

JoeFalcon you are way out of line here and you know it. I did not insinuate that anything like this happened at BG. I commented on a subject that had been being tossed about a little in this very thread, with good reason. Toledo is 25 mins from BG. There were atleast 3 of the most well respected posters on this board who made comments that alluded to the idea that we may be involved and others that posted about how they felt that investigations were bad because they might spread throughout the MAC. I don't think any of those posts were bad in anyway. They were just part of the discussion and an important part here on a BG football board. To jump on mine over these others is just silly.

Honestly, I'm surprised there aren't more scandals like this in the MAC, the Sun Belt, etc.

Vegas posts lines, creating certain incentives -- and some of our programs are so far off the national radar screen, loaded with players who are an awful long way from the NBA or the NFL, etc.

I am not ready to assume point shaving has never occurred here in our neck of the woods.

That's not an accusation. I just think it would be easier get away with in Bowling Green, Ohio or DeKalb, Ill, than it would be in, say, Evanston, Ill.

It sounds like Vegas has a large body of irregular betting activity by known associates. Combine that with the money trail, taped phone conversations, and Scooter rolling over, and it seems like this case has a bow on it.

The only questions in my mind are the extent, what other schools might be involved, and possible penalties levied. Maybe when Freak quotes the all-time record to rebuff the UT trolls, he'll have better numbers now.

Maybe Gregg Brandon is really 4-0 against Toledo.[/quote]

Wow.

This is not something to celebrate nor enjoy. My spidey sense tells me this is going to have far reaching effects on the MAC - including BG.

"Uh, no. Nice try.

The wonderful thing about the "Quote" feature is that it allows one to cite the specific sentences that a poster has used and ferret out BS rather quickly. You never said anything coming close to "if we are clean it won't matter."

You said "If we had people point shaving we deserve to go down."

Strangely enough, you also raise the specter of BG cheating on the second page of the thread when you said "If we ever got busted for somthing like this it would set us back worse then Hiring Greg Brandon as head coach."

For whatever reason, you like to breezily and cavalierly opine on the possibilities of the BG athletic department getting brought down in a similarly massive cheating scandal. I find that both odd and incredibly irresponsible."

The statement "If we had people point shaving we deserved to go down"...clearly has a very easily inferred opposite to it. "If we don't then no problems."

If I am incredibly irresponsible for stating that if we had a similar scandal we deserve to go down, and not saying that I think we will or anything in that realm whatsoever, then there are very few responsible things I do in a given day.

[Globetrotter]

I will also relish in the knowledge that no Toledo fan will be here for awhile.

Well I definitely have not read the entire thread and don't know if other UT fans have been here, but I am here. Why would this keep me from posting here? For one Toledo has been in trouble for things in the past and I have never said Toledo is clean. No program is clean. Unfortunately right now Toledo is a little dirtier and that is really because at least one individual got caught.

This sucks for UT, the MAC, and college sports in general. It's too bad and a pride-buster for many UT fans. But we will get through it, no doubt. And to guess on what really happened and what will happen is not a smart move at this time. All we know right now is there is no evidence that has been released to the public stating anyone played bad to shave points. They might have been propositioned and took gifts, but nothing has said they did play bad. Also, it only specifically mentions the GMAC Bowl in 2005, but we won the game 45-13. How were any points shaved in that game? Another question......how much money is being bet on these games that a UT football player was supposedly offered 10K to sit out one game????? That's a lot of dough for a game in the little old MAC.


I have a bad feeling that this is going to really be a black eye for Toledo and there will be more athletes named and possibly charged. But right now it is anyone's guess.

Sometimes I forget there are people from other schools who come here to not be asses. My apologies.

[Flipper]

RF...Did the excuse "A bunch of the other kids are doing it" fly with your parents?

On the one hand you say "Shame, shame" and on the other you cite this survey or that survey to make the alleged transgresssions seem less unique or unusual. You're mixing muted outrage with an attempt to define the deviancy downward. It's an interesting spin...I don't find it all that convincing, but you go with what you got, I suppose.

Don't spin too hard though...you may find yourself screwed too deeply into the ground to backpedal ....should the need arise, of course.

[Globetrotter]

RF...Did the excuse "A bunch of the other kids are doing it" fly with your parents?

On the one hand you say "Shame, shame" and on the other you cite this survey or that survey to make the alleged transgresssions seem less unique or unusual. You're mixing muted outrage with an attempt to define the deviancy downward. It's an interesting spin...I don't find it all that convincing, but you go with what you got, I suppose.

Don't spin too hard though...you may find yourself screwed too deeply into the ground to backpedal ....should the need arise, of course.

I imagine we would all be doing the same thing in the same instance. Backpedaling quickly while trying to grasp at whatever we could.

[Flipper]

Nah...I'm more of a "torch and pitchfork, hang em high, burn the stadium and salt the earth" kind of guy

[rocketfootball]

RF...Did the excuse "A bunch of the other kids are doing it" fly with your parents?

On the one hand you say "Shame, shame" and on the other you cite this survey or that survey to make the alleged transgresssions seem less unique or unusual. You're mixing muted outrage with an attempt to define the deviancy downward. It's an interesting spin...I don't find it all that convincing, but you go with what you got, I suppose.

Don't spin too hard though...you may find yourself screwed too deeply into the ground to backpedal ....should the need arise, of course.

It's simple Flip, you are not completely understanding me. I merely pointed out that this is a bigger problem than people think.


Believe me, I believe that anyone that is found to be involved should be removed from the campus entirely. I also feel that the NCAA needs to make an example of those individuals to help to deter this kind of stuff that is happening. And as much as it would suck, the NCAA really needs to make an example of UT (even if no one knew an example needs to be made because the survey results show that this is happening in different places and could happen anywhere) and come down hard on UT for this.

That said, right now there isn't a lot of information. That Collegian article has a lot of assumptions. No other media outlet has said anything about a former UT basketball player. The FBI affadavit hasn't either. The Collegian is known for making their own assumptions though and there is too much detail given in there article when no other media outlet has really had any detail.

I'm sorry if you felt I was trying to turn this away from UT by talking about the survey. That was not my intent. I believe this is going to be pretty bad before all is said and done. But the other point to this whole situation is that it is a problem in other places and most likely other schools have no idea it is happening at their school.

[ZiggyZoomba]

Blade "Breaking news" from an afternoon presser at UT.

[TG1996]

Blade "Breaking news" from an afternoon presser at UT.

Are you a shill for the Blade or something???