FMB to play at BOA event in Indianapolis!

[SaxyIrishTenor]

Gruber and Mark, one of the main causes of the poor attitudes in the band are people from the Huto era. Still whiny and bitter and unwilling to put some effort forth on their own to help things out.

To all involved in this thread...I think it's taken a much unneeded turn for the worse. However, I think both sides of this 'argument' have equally valid points. Now, as I respect you all and everything you have to say, the above quote I whole heartedly disagree with.

Niz, I've been in this band for 5 years, one with HuTo and four with Dr. Hayward as director. Now I'll admit that I've had my fair share of disagreements with some of Dr. Hayward's decisions and such, but as one of the people from the Huto era from which you speak, you are full of crap. I will agree that there have been those who yes, dont put forth effort to make the band better....BUT There have been many more people who have. To say what you did, generalizes and lumps all of the HuTo era marchers into one collective and to be honest with you, that is insulting. I have been privileged to march in this band, no matter how good or bad it has been, and have met some of the most amazing and influencial people through said band. Most of whom I consider the people who have made me into the person I am today were, in fact, HuTo era marchers.

Maybe, maybe not. But we had a lot of people who wanted to be there when I marched and they made the shitty days great for the people who were on the edge of quitting.

Case in point: I almost quit after 3 days of Fundies Week my freshman year, but it was a HuTo era marcher who convinced me to stay, thus allowing me to spend 5 years in a band that I will happily call my home, regardless of its talent level or current morale.

If from day one your section leader isn't energetic about anything, are you going to want to be as an incoming freshman? What happens when that same pattern continues for a few years and all those incoming freshmen are now moving into the leadership positions? A very dull and negative environment happens. That needs to change and something or someone needs to light a fire under all your a**es! Now is that your section leaders fault or even the vet's fault? No...because their mindsets have been built on previous experiences that they haven't enjoyed.

Gruber and Mark, one of the main causes of the poor attitudes in the band are people from the Huto era.

Really? Mike is right here for a few reasons.
#1 - Well, it wouldnt really matter if I was from the Chief era marching under his successor, someone would pose this same argument.
#2 - Let's look at the remainder of Huto era marchers that either a) marched in the last 2 years OR b) will be marching this year. As for last year, because I know the number like clockwork, we had 6, count them 6, people who had marched under Dr. Toney. 6 out of 225. This year, the FMB will be lucky enough to maybe have ONE. And let's not forget that all 6 of us that did march last year...with maybe one exception...were 5th year marchers. If we really truly did not enjoy our experience, we would have stopped marching long ago.

Now not to speak for them....but since you're calling out the remainder of the HuTo era vets, let's see who we're talking about (NOTE: this is not an exhaustive list and I am probably missing some names. But the information is correct. I also apologize if you feel misrepresented here, and if so, contact me and I will remove your name):

Myself - yes, passionate about the success of the group, but willing to admit when I'm wrong and not afraid to voice my opinion.
Nathan Williams - relatively quiet and totally not someone who would bring band morale down.
Lord Lewis - a goofball by nature, but still very passionate about the success of the FMB, regardless of the decisions of the director.
Jason Lozer - an amazing musician and talented leader.
OAK - like wise, not afraid to voice his opinion and probably one of the biggest supporters of the program, whether you believe it or not.
Jenny Schaffer - really? need I say more? How would she possibly contribute to discord amongst members of this program? Probably the least likely to even think about saying anything to create a hostile and negative environment.

*for the record - of those 6 names listed, all are members of Tau Beta Sigma or Kappa Kappa Psi, Honorary Band Sorority/Fraternity for College Bandmembers who have the utmost respect for, and desire to continually improve our college/university band programs. Further reminder, Fuj was also a member of that organization as well as a HuTo era alum, though very vocal, still an extremely hard working member of the ensemble from 2001-2003 (is that right Fuj?).

I could go on - but I wont. On to the next point.

I know enough about the Huto era to know that Nate is absolutely right. The poor attitudes on the field are the result of few vets who are still scattered around the band who's bad attitudes spread through the rank and file.

No, now [/b]I[/b] call bullsh*t....and back to Mike's (and MarkL's, although not quoted) point again. There are plenty of CURRENT members who have contributed even more so to the discontent of the FMB as of recent years, if not the majority. Remember, the FMB actually brings in almost more new members than it retains.

Agree, Disagree....you're entitled to do what you want with what I've said. But know that HuTo era marchers/FMB alumni like myself (as I'm no longer marching) and Metz, amongst a cast of thousands from that era and others, would do almost anything to make sure the FMB succeeds no matter what. You run a great risk when you say things like what's been said, from turning away alumni assistance and to possible future membership.

Granted, I dont have my card-carrying, i'm gonna raise hell BGSU alumni status yet, I have d*mn well earned my FMB alumni status and I will be d*mned if my 5 years is going to be put to question by anyone....because if I had to go back and do it all over again......I would not change a thing.

This post does not agree or disagree with the statements regarding lazy show bands or the BOA's guest band standards. Mainly, I'm relatively offended by what has been said here regarding myself and some of my fellow marchers, past or present. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not saying I'm wrong, I am saying though...dont just look at the past to think it's the only way to fix the future.

And down.

Will you marry me?

[PresBG]

and something i left out, and I'm sorry if you take this as a personal attack, but Niz and jg, it is truly meant as a constructive comment/question...but mainly for Niz:

if the problem is older HuTo era marchers, and the students have the tools for success and should take the initiative to make things better...how would you have approached this situation had you become Drum Major?

So far, all I see is a 'problem' with no solutions offered, just more problems.

Again, not meant as an attack, just a concern/comment/question and I mean that whole heartedly.

[jg4242]

@Pres

I see your point. I wasn't clear with what I said about Huto vets, and I ended up making it out as though they are solely to blame for the problems we have when they are not. I apologize to you in particular and to the other vets you listed, as you all are some of the most dedicated marchers I know.

With that said, I still think that many of the problems the FMB is experiencing are caused at least in part, by a collective mistrust of Dr. Hayward that still clings to the FMB even entering into her 5th year as director. Whenever a group changes directors, there is a period of adjustment in which the older students will tend to mistrust the new director, no matter their qualifications or competence. Due to the close-knit nature of the FMB, that mistrust can be passed on to new members who look to an older member for guidance and take that person's opinions as their own. I've seen this happen many times in all kinds of groups; it's human nature to mistrust the new. This is where the problem that Metz pointed out and I waxed philosophic on comes into play. The pattern of bad attitudes and mistrust gets passed down through new members of the band that were not in the band at the time of the transition. Thus, the problem lies not necessarily with the 5th-year vets that you mentioned, but rather with younger members who have inherited the attitudes of people who may no longer be around the organization. That is the sense in which I implicated Huto-era marchers, but I was remiss in not stating that NOT all Huto-era marchers are bad influences on the FMB. In fact, most of them are good, dedicated people who gave it their all despite the hardship of going through a leadership change. There were still a few, however, who left behind a legacy that we have to struggle with today.

Pres, you also asked for a solution to this problem. I did offer a solution, but it's easier said than done. Check out the second paragraph of my novella back on the second page of replies.

[jlozer8]

Really? I'm sorry, but i personally feel that Mike is right here for a few reasons.
#1 - Well, it wouldnt really matter if I was from the Chief era marching under his successor, someone would pose this same argument.
#2 - Let's look at the remainder of Huto era marchers that either a) marched in the last 2 years OR b) will be marching this year. As for last year, because I know the number like clockwork, we had 6, count them 6, people who had marched under Dr. Toney. 6 out of 225. This year, the FMB will be lucky enough to maybe have ONE. And let's not forget that all 6 of us that did march last year...with maybe one exception...were 5th year marchers. If we really truly did not enjoy our experience, we would have stopped marching long ago.
#3 - speaking of quitting and not enjoying it, the one's who truly have not enjoyed their time, left the band of their own accord. Do not misplace their decision to leave with my decision to stay. People get burnt out YES, but people keep coming back, right? Their attitude towards the FMB cant be that bad if they keep coming back to something they like or even love.

Now not to speak for them....but since you're calling out the remainder of the HuTo era vets, let's see who we're talking about (NOTE: this is not an exhaustive list and I am probably missing some names. But the information is correct. I also apologize if you feel misrepresented here, and if so, contact me and I will remove your name):

Myself - yes, passionate about the success of the group, but willing to admit when I'm wrong and not afraid to voice my opinion.
Nathan Williams - relatively quiet and totally not someone who would bring band morale down.
Lord Lewis - a goofball by nature, but still very passionate about the success of the FMB, regardless of the decisions of the director.
Jason Lozer - an amazing musician and talented leader.
OAK - like wise, not afraid to voice his opinion and probably one of the biggest supporters of the program, whether you believe it or not.
Jenny Schaffer - really? need I say more? How would she possibly contribute to discord amongst members of this program? Probably the least likely to even think about saying anything to create a hostile and negative environment.

*for the record - of those 6 names listed, all are members of Tau Beta Sigma or Kappa Kappa Psi, Honorary Band Sorority/Fraternity for College Bandmembers who have the utmost respect for, and desire to continually improve our college/university band programs. Further reminder, Fuj was also a member of that organization as well as a HuTo era alum, though very vocal, still an extremely hard working member of the ensemble from 2001-2003 (is that right Fuj?).

I could go on - but I wont. On to the next point.

Just for the record, Brian Seever would also be on the list. Also a very talented leader and 2 year drum major. Nathan Williams did not march last year. Otherwise, I completely agree with everything you said.

[bgmaggot00]

Pres: Remember to not get into a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

With that in mind, let me remind you that its
A: not good to stereotype people
B: burn bridges. See my post on the "KKPsi Website" post.

[PresBG]

Jeff - point noted.
Lozer - thank you for pointing out those inaccuracies. I probably would not have caught them otherwise
Gruber - well and generously spoken.

That's all I got.

[The Niz]

Perhaps I should have stated my thoughts more clearly; I did not mean that EVERYONE from the last regime has a poor attitude. In fact, all of them are no longer with us, however, the influence lingers behind them. One bad apple can spoil the whole buschel. Lookat some of the members from your own section over the last few years, you can't tell me their attitudes had no effect on other in your section or the rest of the band. Its quite egocentric of you to think this comment was in any way directed at you. Why would I attack someone who has been in the band for five, possibly six years? Breathe man

[Metz]

Why would people be afraid to step up and push themselves and the people around them to do better? I'm not talking about stepping up in opposition to the directors, as that would accomplish nothing and only intensify the problems we have. Furthermore, I do not believe that they are the cause of the problems.

I didn't say people couldn't step up and push people...the stepping up is in reference to following orders without challenging ideas. Yes some ideas are final, but everyone has the right to an opinion and the right to play whatever instrument they want to audition on (that's why you have auditions).

This is where I tend to disagree with you... if, as you say, the problem stems from the section/squad leaders, isn't it their responsibility to change their behavior/attitude for the betterment of the band? I can guarantee you that if they will grow up and get over whatever negative experiences they've had and get on with working to EXCEL in the here and now, the improvement in the band will be immediate and dramatic. It's just that simple. Let's get over the past and get on with it, already!

If only it were that easy. Unfortunately we live in a world where people have a hard time accepting change. We get stuck in ruts and form opinions and stick to them because they are our own. It is the responsibility for the section/squad leaders to change the attitudes of their sections, but in order for that to happen, their attitudes need to change. As they are responsible for the people below them, the people above them are responsible for the sec/squad leaders.

I think each year as people from the HuTo era have moved on, it's getting better because a lot of the negative mindsets are gone. However, something is just missing...and it's not based on my experiences. It's from the stories from alumni from past years and from my brother who marched 4.5 years before me. Times have changed...but that's no reason to NOT enjoy what you are doing! It starts at the top and filters down through everyone...it's that simple.

And please note I'm not using the words fun and enjoy as in misbehaving terms. Everyone should be respectful of their leadership but everyone needs to WANT to be there EVERY DAY. It's called passion, and it can make the worst group/team/anything the best!

I can tell Dr. Hayward has the passion to make the FMB better, but it just seems like a lot of people haven't decided to follow what she's doing. Yeah one person can't please everyone with one method, but if you use many methods together, a group of 250 can be pleased. It's like learning...some people like reading, others like visual, others like hands on. So if you put all 3 together in a packet, everyone's happy

Am I just stating a problem and not saying how to fix it? Tis correct. But I'm not a band director by any means...I am just saying what I see and feel. That I place on the staff if they agree. I may be wrong with what I see and that's fine...but I just wanted to throw out my 2 cents like everyone else!

[The Niz]

Pertaining to people switching instruments and related topics; I was asked to switch to my major instrument at one point in time. My section is like a family to me and I opted to stay with them. I was not hassled or degraded for it, in fact, I was somewhat praised for the decision. I do not feel my career is in jeopardy either. On the other hand, maybe I'm just not that important.

[SaxyIrishTenor]

Perhaps I should have stated my thoughts more clearly; I did not mean that EVERYONE from the last regime has a poor attitude. In fact, all of them are no longer with us, however, the influence lingers behind them. One bad apple can spoil the whole buschel. Lookat some of the members from your own section over the last few years, you can't tell me their attitudes had no effect on other in your section or the rest of the band. Its quite egocentric of you to think this comment was in any way directed at you. Why would I attack someone who has been in the band for five, possibly six years? Breathe man

But I don't think you can fairly put out the claim AT ALL that it's the people from the HuTo era that have the poor attitudes. Implicit in that statement is the fact that it's them and none other that are to blame.

If we're going to use your logic, then it's safe to assume that HuTo era marchers were tainted by the attitude of Dr. Rohr, and that noncommital Dr. Rohr era marchers were a result of Chief's poor leadership. Forgive me if my directors are out of order, but I'm still able to make my point.

You ask the question about members of Pres' section, at least I think that's whom you are referring to; correct me if I am wrong. You are correct in stating that individual members of said section might have attitudes that could bring others down, but implying that those attitudes are the result of the HuTo era marchers is unfair and inaccurate.

To say that the individuals to blame are purely products of previous directors is uninformed and slightly offensive to those of us who were HuTo era marchers. You take blame from current marchers with poor attitudes and shove it onto a group of people who happen to have been around longer than you. To me, it appears to be a cheap shot that weakly attempts to take the pressure off of current marchers like yourself.

This thread is pissing me off.

[Shakeatailfeather04]

Me too Saxy...

To blame anything that is going on now on "HuTo" era marchers is absolutely ridiculous. Dr. Toney hasn't directed the FMB in almost 5 years! And yes, I am offended by this implication- as I marched under him for 3 years.

And Pres is right- anyone who is still left from that era would be someone who had marched for quite a long time and obviously enjoys it. I would venture to say that not very many people march 4 or 5 years with attitudes so terrible that they would bring down the rest of their section and cause all of these problems with the entire band.

I'm sorry, but you're grasping at straws here. You can blame anyone you want- old vets, the director, your leadership- but ultimately the only thing you have control over is you. Take responsibility for yourself- go out to the field everyday with a positive attitude, give 110% and see how contagious it can be.

[jacojdm]

If we're going to use your logic, then it's safe to assume that HuTo era marchers were tainted by the attitude of Dr. Rohr, and that noncommital Dr. Rohr era marchers were a result of Chief's poor leadership. Forgive me if my directors are out of order, but I'm still able to make my point.

You missed Warren Ohlfert (between Tom Rohrer and Hubert Toney, Jr.), and any other of assistants, including Jay Jackson and L. Richmond Sparks before Tom Rohrer.
That said, I support your point of view.

[SaxyIrishTenor]

If we're going to use your logic, then it's safe to assume that HuTo era marchers were tainted by the attitude of Dr. Rohr, and that noncommital Dr. Rohr era marchers were a result of Chief's poor leadership. Forgive me if my directors are out of order, but I'm still able to make my point.

You missed Warren Ohlfert (between Tom Rohrer and Hubert Toney, Jr.), and any other of assistants, including Jay Jackson and L. Richmond Sparks before Tom Rohrer.
That said, I support your point of view.

I KNEW I was missing somebody. Thanks.

[PresBG]

Perhaps I should have stated my thoughts more clearly; I did not mean that EVERYONE from the last regime has a poor attitude. In fact, all of them are no longer with us, however, the influence lingers behind them. One bad apple can spoil the whole buschel. Look at some of the members from your own section over the last few years, you can't tell me their attitudes had no effect on other in your section or the rest of the band. Its quite egocentric of you to think this comment was in any way directed at you. Why would I attack someone who has been in the band for five, possibly six years? Breathe man

Call it egocentric, call it self-centered, call it whatever you want to - the fact remains that I am a person from that era, even if it was the end of it. Therefore to call out the larger group, yes, you are also calling me out as well. But I can also accept the fact that this whole issue is NOT about ME, never has been. I could care less if you were to have called me out directly. I would not change the way I feel about this issue in a heartbeat.

You know, you are right though. Unless by some fluke someone comes back for a 6th, all the Huto era people are now gone. And you say their influence lingers behind them? Ok, I can possbly accept that...but then again, who's to say the first couple generation of marchers under Dr. H wont do the same? I'm not passing the buck so much as I am just asking a question that I think no one has given much thought to. I ask you to consider that Niz, as you are one of the people on this board who within another year or so, will not be marching anymore. you will join the ranks of old-timey FMB alumni and could possibly have to defend yourself and fellow marchers someday. Again, not an attack comment, just something for consideration, that's all.

To generalize without all the facts is ignorance. I can agree with you that yes, there were some people in my particular section that at times brought negative attitudes and feelings to band and had no problems expressing them. Heck, sometimes they even made me want to walk off the field, but I also remembered where I was and I was there. Regardless of that, I do agree with Saxy, to generalize a larger group of people (i.e. Huto era marchers) due to the attitudes of some who happen to be a part of that larger group is inappropriate and uninformed.

One bad apple can spoil the whole bushel? Perhaps. But when the bushel happens to be massive and has 225 apples in it, do you really and truly believe that ONE apple will ruin the experience for everyone? I say no. This experience called band is what you, the individual, make of it. Allowing other people to ruin the experience for you is allowing someone else to control YOUR experience. And regardless of the attitudes of others in the band, personally, my experience is something I wouldnt change for the world.


What experience will YOU make of it?
(question to anyone, not just one person)

[Rightupinthere]

The beginning of the slide of the FMB started with one L. Richmond Sparks.

That phucker drove quite a few really good members out of the band. One member told Chief that "he never wanted to take the field again in ANY marching band." This sort of news was not easy for Chief to take. Needless to say, L. Richmond was not asked back to BGSU (THANKFULLY).

Rohr was okay from what I could tell, but the rank and file didn't really "buy into" his philosophy.

The freefall happened after Chief retired for good. That's all I'll say to that.

Sorry, I didn't like Tomey and his leadership - or lack thereof was evident as the product on the field. I'm sorry, I'm sure he was a really good guy and decent sit-down band director, but he was not good for the FMB. I say this as an observer and have no motivation for negativity towards him. He treated the alumni band as a liability. it was nearly painful dealing with the man.

Hayward has been nothing short of awesome simply based on the product and resurrection of the FMB. Most of the alumni look up to her - which is strange because she's something like 2'7" tall. I'm sure there are some personality conflicts within the band, but those haven't hindered the progress of the band. I can only surmise that these conflicts have very little effect to what is produced on the field. Mole hills have a way of becoming mountains when it comes to 18-22 year olds.

That's my somewhat unbiased opinion.