Convocation Center Disappointment

Flipper · Post by **Flipper** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:43 am

Does the University have any sort of guidleines suggesting local firms be given preference? If they don't, I definitely think they should. I'm not suggesting that they HAVE to contract wiht local firms, but if the expertise of the bidder and amount of the bid are more or less equal, preference should be given to companies domiciled within NW Ohio

Redwingtom · Post by **Redwingtom** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:52 am

Flipper wrote:Does the University have any sort of guidleines suggesting local firms be given preference? If they don't, I definitely think they should. I'm not suggesting that they HAVE to contract wiht local firms, but if the expertise of the bidder and amount of the bid are more or less equal, preference should be given to companies domiciled within NW Ohio

I would have to imagine Flipper that there is a state law in place regarding competitive bidding that "must" be followed.

Schadenfreude · Post by **Schadenfreude** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:18 am

Redwingtom wrote:
Flipper wrote:Does the University have any sort of guidleines suggesting local firms be given preference? If they don't, I definitely think they should. I'm not suggesting that they HAVE to contract wiht local firms, but if the expertise of the bidder and amount of the bid are more or less equal, preference should be given to companies domiciled within NW Ohio
I would have to imagine Flipper that there is a state law in place regarding competitive bidding that "must" be followed.

There are state laws on competitive bidding, no question.

I think there is more flexibility for certain kinds of professional services. A classic example is legal services. Contracts with lawyers are unbid, by and large.

I'm not sure where this kind of contract falls on that scale. Did BGSU have some flexibility? I don't know.

Also, on local hiring, I think there are some legal complexities. There is a great deal of school construction going on right now in Ohio, and many districts -- especially in larger cities -- have set local hiring goals.

An example is the Akron schools, which want half the workers on their school construction projects to be Akron residents, 20 percent minorities and 5 percent women.

But it's always framed in terms of "goals" -- not requirements or mandates -- which suggests to me that there is some legal trickiness.

Also, these goals involve the labor, not the firms themselves.

And, even though what Flipper lays out sounds pretty reasonable*, it might be even trickier, legally, to try to set hiring goals (or mandates) when it comes to firms. I don't know if this can be done, really, except right around the edges.

A good building and trades lawyer could help us better understand these issues I think. I know one, if you want me to try to find out more.

Anyway, it's also worth noting that there is, arguably, a national market for the service BGSU wants. We are talking about a basketball arena, a rather specialized kind of building.

I don't know a lot about Poggemeyer, but my impression is that they haven't done a lot of buildings like this. They are involved in the downtown Toledo arena project, from what I understand, but, for all I know, this is the first project of its kind for Poggemeyer. When I think about this firm, I think about transportation projects, streetscapes, urban planning, that kind of thing.

Another thing to think about: Poggemeyer does business all over the place. The headquarters remains in Bowling Green, but they have offices -- and projects -- all over Ohio, and in Erie, Pa., Las Vegas, Reno, Nev., Seattle and San Diego.

If every public entity always leaned toward hiring locally, one could argue that Poggemeyer wouldn't be nearly as big or prosperous as it is today.

There are some compelling points made in this thread in favor of Poggemeyer. They probably do have a lot of Falcon fans at that firm, and I would think they would have been stoked to get this project. It might have gotten extra attention from the firm because of these intangibles and it could have helped lift the firm into a new type of work.

On the other hand, the other firms may have had more experience. Experience matters. Being able to learn from past successes and failures and apply that wisdom to the next project is a big deal.

BGSU tends to make good decisions. I'm not sure it's right to second guess this one.

That's my take.

--

* Actually, the way Flipper described it was a classic way to describe affirmative action. I don't know if he consciously thought about as he wrote that sentence.

Rightupinthere · Post by **Rightupinthere** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:23 am

Schadenfreude wrote: * Actually, the way Flipper described it was a classic way to describe affirmative action. I don't know if he consciously thought about as he wrote that sentence.

Thread derailment in 5...4....3....2....

orangeandbrown · Post by **orangeandbrown** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:31 pm

Well, to keep on the rails, professional services aren't bid by cost. You pick the most qualified firm and then negotiate price with that firm. If you can't, you move along to the next firm. But, you can't underbid someone.

Further, I doubt if we picked the cheapest firm. URS is a huge firm which has built many such facilities.

However, I think the Poggemeyer team should have been picked. I believe that people who give these contracts often feel like big shots when they use an international firm.

Post by **ZiggyZoomba** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:47 pm

Remember, this wasn't just Poggemeyer, this was Poggemeyer partnered with Ellerbe-Beckett...

http://www.poggemeyer.com/

http://www.ellerbebecket.com/

I know it's over and done with and I'm still excited about the project, I'd just really like to know how the decision was made... and if it was politics ... then I want to know that. I don't think that was the case... but... BG is a small town...

I still think exceptions should have been made to keep the job local if the local company was on par (within a percentage) with the other bids as far as quality, experience, recommendations and price goes.

Schadenfreude · Post by **Schadenfreude** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:30 pm

orangeandbrown wrote: I believe that people who give these contracts often feel like big shots when they use an international firm.

Interesting point. I had not thought about that.

Some of us may have awarded more contracts than others.

Schadenfreude · Post by **Schadenfreude** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:31 pm

ZiggyZoomba wrote:Remember, this wasn't just Poggemeyer, this was Poggemeyer partnered with Ellerbe-Beckett...

Another good point. Ellerbe-Beckett obviously has a lot of expereience.

Tricky_Falcon · Post by **Tricky_Falcon** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:37 pm

From Ryan Autullo's Blog

"I promise I’m almost done, but first I need to vent. I’ve received a couple e-mails from fans disappointed that BGSU decided to not hire a local firm to design the convocation center. I agree. But I’m also disappointed in the athletic department’s decision to announce its construction plans on a Saturday. Major announcements should never come on a Saturday, especially when the GMAC invitation came a couple hours later! Two of the biggest announcements regarding BG sports came on the same day. I just don’t get it. Furthermore, all of the BG beat writers were at the men’s basketball game at Oakland on Saturday, meaning we had little time to write about the convocation center plans. Not a great PR move if you ask me. "

TG1996 · Post by **TG1996** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:14 pm

I was about to comment on the same thing when it came out last weekend, but didn't see the need to spoil the mood. But yeah, I also thought the timing of the release was a little odd.

Flipper · Post by **Flipper** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:00 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:* Actually, the way Flipper described it was a classic way to describe affirmative action. I don't know if he consciously thought about as he wrote that sentence.

Why you bear-baitin' SOB...

I actually don't have a problem with the kind of affirmative action that rewards roughly equal candidates with some preference based on the existing population...diversity is a healthy thing.

The type of AA that weighs ethnictiy, race, gender or number of toes more than basic qualifications is not something I support. The University of Michigan used to give more admission points to a prospective student for being an African American than they did for getting a perfect score on the SAT. That was a bad idea........

h2oville rocket · Post by **h2oville rocket** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:49 pm

Flipper wrote:
Schadenfreude wrote:* Actually, the way Flipper described it was a classic way to describe affirmative action. I don't know if he consciously thought about as he wrote that sentence.
Why you bear-baitin' SOB...

I actually don't have a problem with the kind of affirmative action that rewards roughly equal candidates with some preference based on the existing population...diversity is a healthy thing.

The type of AA that weighs ethnictiy, race, gender or number of toes more than basic qualifications is not something I support. The University of Michigan used to give more admission points to a prospective student for being an African American than they did for getting a perfect score on the SAT. That was a bad idea........

I don't know- I always felt that I had to give Hound Dog Taylor a few extra listens during my marathon blues sessions because he had that sixth finger. Oooops- that's my contribution to thread derailment.

Schadenfreude · Post by **Schadenfreude** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:59 am

TG1996 wrote:I was about to comment on the same thing when it came out last weekend, but didn't see the need to spoil the mood. But yeah, I also thought the timing of the release was a little odd.

I tend to think that BGSU isn't thinking about this as the official official announcement.

Otherwise, it's inexplicable.

Tech83 · Post by **Tech83** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:36 am

I'll take a stab at this........

Poggle did a good job by teaming with Ellerbe Beckett (one of the top sports facilities architects in the country - HOK Sports being another). We would have to know how the project team (division of services) was being handled. That could be the downfall of their proposal. If I was Poggy - I would probably have kept a portion of schematic design (to learn) and kept all of bidding/neg and 90% of Construction Admin. Plus Poggy is really an engineering firm not architects and they could have kept all site design and civil engineering.

However - the selection would have to conform to State of Ohio guidelines (if all or even part of the funding was from the state/feds). There in lies the problem as big Ohio firms with lots of University experience get these jobs - because of influence in Columbus (right or wrong). Typically there is a grading sheet used in firm selection - we have to get a copy of the grading sheet. (Which would be available on-line - Ohio Register).
Ohio Reister #170 October 1, 2007 See grading sheet on page 11.

Fortunately or unfortunately, firms are first selected on "qualifications" - which can be tenuously deteremined and are VERY subjective. (Hell - How do you say Ellerbe Beckett is not qualified). Then once the firms are ranked and intereviewed, fees can be discussed. This is all a process put in place by the American Insitute of Architects - a group I no longer a member and HIGHLY disagree with about everything they do. (I could write a freaking dissertation about those idiots).

This whole "quals-based" selection is a method to keep young firms or small firms from getting the "juicy" public projects. The design fee for this project will easily be 8% of the construction costs and most of that money will go into pockets of the partners - not the actual architects busting their a$$es to get the project designed and built (Another dissertation - guess that's why I own my own firm)

So to get to the issue of fee - We may actually pay more in design fees just because you can't hire an architect based on fees alone. Poggy probably never got the chance to give a fee. but realize 1% reduction of fees can amount to a lot of money.

Now all that being said - I get projects based on "quals" alone - and there are some projects where fee alone is used and I get screwed by someone who has no experience and has drastically cut their fee just to "get in the door" - the problem with that mentality is there are lots of architects who will undercut you the next time - so I always give a good fee. The best thing is when I actually have a higher fee and still get the project due to my experience/personality/references.

Now about references - Has Poggy done work at BG before and are they currently doing work. If so, has there been any issues that would cause concern for the U such as......Slow response. Poor management. Lack of communication...... That type of record could hurt Poggy. We don't know. A good client would call references.

However - hiring locally is VERY important and can be a good marketing tool. Studies have shown that design fees (and construction funds) spent with local firms are respent in the local economy 7 times. There is proven economic reasons to spend your dollars locally.

There is also the whole mentality that those other architects with office far away must know what they are doing - because we KNOW the local firms could never do our complex project. (BULLPOO) - But then again - I get a lot of work because I am that Dayton architect - he must know what he's doing. So I can renovate a government building 60 miles away - but I can't do the one here in my own town. Go figure.

Okay - I sure I have muddied this whole thing pretty well. Either way there is nearly 2 million dollars in design fess leaving Wood County and the State of Ohio.

Quite Honestly - Poggy should have pursed the two other BGSU projects with vigor. The fees would actually be better (% wise) and help build their relationship with the U. And probably played to their strengths (engineering - they really are not know for architecture) But then again - I don't know if Poggy has already worked on campus - I am assuming they have not or as civil engineers only.

Rightupinthere · Post by **Rightupinthere** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:30 pm

Tech83 wrote:I'll take a stab at this........

Yeah, like you would know anything......