Wow!

[hammb]

This team is inconsistent, and it's what we're going to have to deal with. If you'd have told me we'd be 2-2 in the MAC at this point I'd be pretty happy considering 3 of those games have come against the upper echelon of the conference. Our 5th game is also against one of the best teams in the conference. Unfortunately for us, they're all in our division and we have to play all of them again. Still, losing @KSU & @UA is nothing to be ashamed of.

Losing the way we lost yesterday, is, however, something to be ashamed of. We just flat out didn't compete, from the way it sounded on the radio. We got absolutely destroyed in every facet of the game, and that's discouraging. Hopefully the young guys work extra hard to ensure that doesn't happen again.

Looking at the team as a whole we have two glaring weaknesses and they're going to haunt us all year...they'll be especially noticeable in the games we lose:

Shooting & Turnovers

The turnovers are frustrating as all get out, but they are somewhat understandable. We only have one true PG on the team, and he's a true freshmen. True freshmen PGs always struggle when asked to run the show. The other guards on our roster are just flat out not meant to be PGs. They don't see the floor well enough and they don't make the crisp passes needed to play the position. Combine that with a Freshman PF, and two SO centers we're getting a ton of turnovers. I hope as the season wears on we'll start to see those numbers decline.

Shooting, OTOH, is just horrendous. This is seriously the worst collection of shooters I've ever seen make up a Division 1 roster. Our best scorer cannot make anything outside of 7 feet, and that includes being a very poor free throw shooter. That really kills us because he excels so much at getting to the line. The afore mentioned freshman PG shows some signs of a good shot, but he's still inconsistent. Knight has no concept of shot selection, or aggression to get the better shots. Clements & Sims are just brutal jumpshooters. Larson & OP are centers, I don't expect them to play outside the paint. That leaves Moten as the one single solitary member of the team that has a legit Division 1 jumpshot. He ain't JJ Reddick, but at least he's got a competent shot.

I don't know what else to say, this group just stinks outside of 7 feet from the rim. We all like to harp on the free throw shooting, and rightfully so, but honestly it's just an easy way to see the glaring weakness on this team. We shot 28% from beyond the arc. We shoot 65% from the FT line. I don't know where to find it, but I'm betting that our midrange shooting stats are similarly pathetic to our 3pt%.

We just flat out don't have a legit true scorer on the team. Combine that with our lack of consistent PG play and you're going to get games where the offensive numbers look disgusting. Last night was one of those games.

[hammb]

In response to the poster... clearly Larson has proven in practice that he should be starting or Coach wouldn't start him right.... unless he is using the year to evaluate talent? I am as sick as anyone watching players leave the program, however sometimes it is best to part ways with a player when a new coaching staff comes in. In my opinion I think the move would be good for Larson and BG. I totally agree with Wart... he is just not athletic enough. I think ORR is probably pretty good at teaching big men and it looks like he is doing a great job with OP who appear to be progressing... Larson not as much

You wouldn't see me complain if he leaves. I got tired of watching good players leave, but I'm not going to complain when guys like Dusan or Larson leave the program. I honestly see nothing to make me believe Larson is a division 1 caliber basketball player. That said, he is still our only reserve center, until Madlock is ready to play.

I think the reason he starts is to keep OP on the bench so he doesn't come out all jacked up and get quick fouls. Otis is almost always the first man off the bench and when he stays out of foul trouble he plays the majority of the minutes. Larson's role, while he does start, is mostly just to give Otis a break, or to go in if Otis gets into foul trouble.

[BleedOrange]

In response to the poster... clearly Larson has proven in practice that he should be starting or Coach wouldn't start him right.... unless he is using the year to evaluate talent? I am as sick as anyone watching players leave the program, however sometimes it is best to part ways with a player when a new coaching staff comes in. In my opinion I think the move would be good for Larson and BG. I totally agree with Wart... he is just not athletic enough. I think ORR is probably pretty good at teaching big men and it looks like he is doing a great job with OP who appear to be progressing... Larson not as much

You wouldn't see me complain if he leaves. I got tired of watching good players leave, but I'm not going to complain when guys like Dusan or Larson leave the program. I honestly see nothing to make me believe Larson is a division 1 caliber basketball player. That said, he is still our only reserve center, until Madlock is ready to play.

I think the reason he starts is to keep OP on the bench so he doesn't come out all jacked up and get quick fouls. Otis is almost always the first man off the bench and when he stays out of foul trouble he plays the majority of the minutes. Larson's role, while he does start, is mostly just to give Otis a break, or to go in if Otis gets into foul trouble.

I've been holding off about saying these things about Larson, but you've done my dirty work for me. He's a smart, hardworking kid that has no business on a D1 basketball floor. He just doesn't have it athletically. He is another example of DD's odd idea of what constitutes a D1 player (Ryan, Floyd, Dusan). As we add Marcshall, the two freshman forwards, and a matured Madlock, it's hard to imagine Larson getting minutes.

factman rightly points out that Coach Orr knows more about hoops than any of us, sees his team daily in practice, and knows the most about their capabilities. Nevertheless, given our roster, I cannot refrain from asking this question: "Why on earth is Madlock seeing such little playing time?"

[ZuluWarrior]

Games like this happen every so often, did they play this game in Mobile?

[Falconfreak90]

It was brutal to watch. Akron is a very athletic team and their D suffocated us the whole game.

It didn't help that we couldn't hit a shot to save our life. OUCH.

I would have these guys shooting 200 extra FT's every day...that is something the needs to improve drastically.

At least we got two free tix outside the arena.

[Globetrotter]

3 things.

1) FTs is the easiest thing in the world to do. It is all repitition. I could teach anyone on this board to be a 70% FT shooter in 2 hour. y. I can shoot 70% without looking at the basket...thats not a hyperbole. I can do it. It wreaks of bad coaching that they cant do this well. Think about the front of the rim and the ball going in. dribble or spin the ball the exact same way every time and use your knees in your motion so there is some power into it. I am very limited athletically, but FT shooting is so easy that anyone not shooting above 70% in college is lazy. Bar none.

2)Larson. We should not want our starting center to transfer. Kid may never be great but we need big men and we are not getting anyone with a similar body to come in here next season. He is a solid compliment to OP and a true center. At least he can give us 5 fouls, the occasional block and score etc. If he transfers we have one player over 6-8. Thats not a good situation. Plus he is a hardworker. Rewarding a hardworker by asking him to transfer sets a horrible precedent.

edit to add 3rd thing:
3) I dont want anyone to transfer, but I think the most frustrating thing about this team is that it is built with the right pieces, in terms of the right kind of players, but no one is developing or becoming that special player. Players like Moten and Sims frustrate me more than anything because they dont seem to even have a role on the team. Both could be the scorer this team desperately needs, but neither seems to have developed since getting to BG.

2008

PG Jakubowski 6-2 So. Brown 6-2 Fr
SG Clements 6-4 Sr. Moten 6-4 Sr. Sims 6-1 Jr.
SF Miller 6-4 Sr Thomas 6-6 Fr
PF Knight 6-7 So. Marschall 6-7 Jr. Calhoun 6-7 Fr
C Larson 6-9 Jr. Polk 6-9 Jr. Madlock 6-8 So.

[Falconfreak90]

Agree on both counts, GT.

[hammb]

1) I agree it's ridiculous to be shooting so low as a team. I don't think that everyone should just magically be shooting 70%, but as a team we're way below average. It's not uncommon for centers to be awkward free throw shooters, and it's not just pure laziness. Shaq was well known for shooting free throws for hours during practices, and still struggled to do much over 55%. When your guards are struggling as well though, it's very frustrating.

2) Larson is our starting center but contributes next to nothing to the team other than eating minutes. Yeah he starts, but so what? You hit the nail on the head when you said that if he leaves we'd only have one guy over 6'8. That's the only thing that he contributes, and I assume it's why you say he's a "true center". I'm sorry, but the only thing he has that you look for in a basketball player is height. Even that height isn't that great because it's all neck & torso...his arms aren't long at all. He's got no post moves at all, he can barely catch the basketball, and he's an awful rebounder. Is he a hard worker? I honestly have no idea. I assume he must be or he wouldn't be starting, but that work hasn't done much to make him a better basketball player...he's just not talented enough to be a division 1 player...I'm sorry if I don't acknowledge height as the great determination of ability.

As to him complimenting Polk, HOW? OP is a better defensive player, they're about even offensively, and he's a FAR better rebounder. The only thing I can possibly imagine Larson "complementing" Polk at is that Larson doesn't commit as many dumb fouls. That's his contribution; he's tall and can play the position when Polk is in foul trouble or needs a rest. I'm not running him out begging him to leave, but if he did I wouldn't cry over it. I honestly don't know that you could find a player of his height that would contribute less to the team. For the life of me, I'm still trying to figure out how he gets less rebounds than our freaking freshman PG!

3) Sorry, the pieces aren't here. Moten is a good jump shooter and finishes well around the rim in transition. He's not going to step up to become the scorer we need because he doesn't have any ability to get his own shot. He was that way the first time I saw him and he still is; I don't think that's changing. He's fine as a spot up shooting option. I have no idea how you expect Sims to step up as a scorer either. He doesn't seem to have a clue where his jumper is going (which is surprising, because it looked good last year). Sims can really freaking jump, but he cannot dribble at all. He seriously dribbles off his foot or leg when he tries to make a move on people...put him with Moten as having no ability to create his own shot...even worse his spot up shot has been awful. The result is very little PT for him this season. Of course neither of them can really defend, either.


I'm sorry but when I watch our games (and I've only missed one home game) the "right pieces" is far from the first thing that comes to mind. The only players who I ever see playing major minutes for a quality MAC team would be Miller, Knight, Jakubowski, and Polk. Of that group only Miller (and perhaps Polk) are where they would be contributing RIGHT NOW on a good MAC team.

Sims, Moten, Clements, and Larson are filler. They're role players on a poor MAC team, and wouldn't even have scholarships on a good MAC team. They're a testatment to the piss poor job the previous staff did of evaluating and recruiting talent. I'm sure they're all great kids, and I'd love to be wrong about them, but until I see something different than what I've seen from them the past few years, this is my opinion.

For coach Orr to have this group at 2-2 in the conference is great. If we can finish anywhere near .500 in conference play this year I'd vote him for MAC coach of the year.

[Falconboy]

3 things. to BG.

2008

PG Jakubowski 6-2 So. Brown 6-2 Fr
SG Clements 6-4 Sr. Moten 6-4 Sr. Sims 6-1 Jr.
SF Miller 6-4 Sr Thomas 6-6 Fr
PF Knight 6-7 So. Marschall 6-7 Jr. Calhoun 6-7 Fr
C Larson 6-9 Jr. Polk 6-9 Jr. Madlock 6-8 So.

My idea of what our '08 lineup could look and maybe should look like is this.

PG Jakubowski 6-2 So. Brown 6-2 Fr.
SG Moten 6'4 Sr, Thomas 6'7 , Fr., Clements 6'4 Sr., Sims 6'1 Jr.
SF Knight 6'7 So. Calhoun 6'7 Fr. Miller 6'4 Sr. Clements 6'4 Sr.
PF Marschall 6'7 Jr. Madlock 6'8 So. Knight 6'7 So.
C Polk 6'9 Jr. Madlock 6'8 So./Marschall 6'7 Jr. Larson 6'9 Jr.

This assuming that Thomas and Calhoun are above average ball handlers for 6'7 that I'm hoping they are. The kind of players we need to stockpile this team with our 6'6-6'8 guys than can either play the SG/SF and handle the ball well and play facing the basket.

[Globetrotter]

2) Larson is our starting center but contributes next to nothing to the team other than eating minutes. Yeah he starts, but so what? You hit the nail on the head when you said that if he leaves we'd only have one guy over 6'8. That's the only thing that he contributes, and I assume it's why you say he's a "true center". I'm sorry, but the only thing he has that you look for in a basketball player is height. Even that height isn't that great because it's all neck & torso...his arms aren't long at all. He's got no post moves at all, he can barely catch the basketball, and he's an awful rebounder. Is he a hard worker? I honestly have no idea. I assume he must be or he wouldn't be starting, but that work hasn't done much to make him a better basketball player...he's just not talented enough to be a division 1 player...I'm sorry if I don't acknowledge height as the great determination of ability.

As to him complimenting Polk, HOW? OP is a better defensive player, they're about even offensively, and he's a FAR better rebounder. The only thing I can possibly imagine Larson "complementing" Polk at is that Larson doesn't commit as many dumb fouls. That's his contribution; he's tall and can play the position when Polk is in foul trouble or needs a rest. I'm not running him out begging him to leave, but if he did I wouldn't cry over it. I honestly don't know that you could find a player of his height that would contribute less to the team. For the life of me, I'm still trying to figure out how he gets less rebounds than our freaking freshman PG!

3) Sorry, the pieces aren't here. Moten is a good jump shooter and finishes well around the rim in transition. He's not going to step up to become the scorer we need because he doesn't have any ability to get his own shot. He was that way the first time I saw him and he still is; I don't think that's changing. He's fine as a spot up shooting option. I have no idea how you expect Sims to step up as a scorer either. He doesn't seem to have a clue where his jumper is going (which is surprising, because it looked good last year). Sims can really freaking jump, but he cannot dribble at all. He seriously dribbles off his foot or leg when he tries to make a move on people...put him with Moten as having no ability to create his own shot...even worse his spot up shot has been awful. The result is very little PT for him this season. Of course neither of them can really defend, either.


I'm sorry but when I watch our games (and I've only missed one home game) the "right pieces" is far from the first thing that comes to mind. The only players who I ever see playing major minutes for a quality MAC team would be Miller, Knight, Jakubowski, and Polk. Of that group only Miller (and perhaps Polk) are where they would be contributing RIGHT NOW on a good MAC team.

Sims, Moten, Clements, and Larson are filler. They're role players on a poor MAC team, and wouldn't even have scholarships on a good MAC team. They're a testatment to the piss poor job the previous staff did of evaluating and recruiting talent. I'm sure they're all great kids, and I'd love to be wrong about them, but until I see something different than what I've seen from them the past few years, this is my opinion.

For coach Orr to have this group at 2-2 in the conference is great. If we can finish anywhere near .500 in conference play this year I'd vote him for MAC coach of the year.

You have to remember I dont see any of these games. As in none all year.

1) With someone like Shaq I assume he is lazy, it could also be do to the fact that his hands are too big. How that works I have no idea. I think he is just focused on other things.

2) Larson Compliments OP because he allows OP to play more aggressively. Being 6-9 and 245 is an asset. Sized is an asset because he can eat up the lane and space. He is an asset because we have no one else.

[Globetrotter]

You have to remember I dont see any of these games. As in none all year. So my knowledge is limited and I bow to anyone here who watches many more games. My thoughts are much more due to numbers and logic.

1) With someone like Shaq I assume he is lazy, it could also be do to the fact that his hands are too big. How that works I have no idea. I think he is just focused on other things and has had success without ever being great at it so he doesnt care.

2) Larson Compliments OP because he allows OP to play more aggressively because we have someone we can turn to. Being 6-9 and 245 is an asset on a team like this. We are not bringing in anyone comparable in the next few years. Size is an asset because he can eat up the lane and space in the lane. He is an asset because we have no one else. I am not saying there are not better players out there, but if he was that horrible he could not be avg a block a game and 6 pts a game.

"The only thing I can possibly imagine Larson "complementing" Polk at is that Larson doesn't commit as many dumb fouls. That's his contribution; he's tall and can play the position when Polk is in foul trouble or needs a rest. I'm not running him out begging him to leave, but if he did I wouldn't"

Really good point about his deceiving size with his neck length.

3) We have had this discussion before in terms of pieces when we were discussing why we were so bad. By pieces I mean we have 2 big centers, 2 quality forwards a Big guard and a true point. What we dont have is anyone developing into a dangerous scorer. Moten flashes this and Sims came in with this rep. We seem to have the infrastructure for a good team. Meaning that we are in a position where a scorer can come in and succeed instantly

[Globetrotter]

3 things. to BG.

2008

PG Jakubowski 6-2 So. Brown 6-2 Fr
SG Clements 6-4 Sr. Moten 6-4 Sr. Sims 6-1 Jr.
SF Miller 6-4 Sr Thomas 6-6 Fr
PF Knight 6-7 So. Marschall 6-7 Jr. Calhoun 6-7 Fr
C Larson 6-9 Jr. Polk 6-9 Jr. Madlock 6-8 So.

My idea of what our '08 lineup could look and maybe should look like is this.

PG Jakubowski 6-2 So. Brown 6-2 Fr.
SG Moten 6'4 Sr, Thomas 6'7 , Fr., Clements 6'4 Sr., Sims 6'1 Jr.
SF Knight 6'7 So. Calhoun 6'7 Fr. Miller 6'4 Sr. Clements 6'4 Sr.
PF Marschall 6'7 Jr. Madlock 6'8 So. Knight 6'7 So.
C Polk 6'9 Jr. Madlock 6'8 So./Marschall 6'7 Jr. Larson 6'9 Jr.

This assuming that Thomas and Calhoun are above average ball handlers for 6'7 that I'm hoping they are. The kind of players we need to stockpile this team with our 6'6-6'8 guys than can either play the SG/SF and handle the ball well and play facing the basket.

So our current best player is 3rd on the depth chart at sf. That is silly.

[Falconboy]

3 things. to BG.

2008

PG Jakubowski 6-2 So. Brown 6-2 Fr
SG Clements 6-4 Sr. Moten 6-4 Sr. Sims 6-1 Jr.
SF Miller 6-4 Sr Thomas 6-6 Fr
PF Knight 6-7 So. Marschall 6-7 Jr. Calhoun 6-7 Fr
C Larson 6-9 Jr. Polk 6-9 Jr. Madlock 6-8 So.

My idea of what our '08 lineup could look and maybe should look like is this.

PG Jakubowski 6-2 So. Brown 6-2 Fr.
SG Moten 6'4 Sr, Thomas 6'7 , Fr., Clements 6'4 Sr., Sims 6'1 Jr.
SF Knight 6'7 So. Calhoun 6'7 Fr. Miller 6'4 Sr. Clements 6'4 Sr.
PF Marschall 6'7 Jr. Madlock 6'8 So. Knight 6'7 So.
C Polk 6'9 Jr. Madlock 6'8 So./Marschall 6'7 Jr. Larson 6'9 Jr.

This assuming that Thomas and Calhoun are above average ball handlers for 6'7 that I'm hoping they are. The kind of players we need to stockpile this team with our 6'6-6'8 guys than can either play the SG/SF and handle the ball well and play facing the basket.

So our current best player is 3rd on the depth chart at sf. That is silly.

Ok , you can switch Miller and Calhoun if you want. Like Hammb has said , Miller has no range beyond 7, 8 ft. He should be getting down low on mismatches and exploiting them instead of roaming the 3pt line and trying to drive on guys he's not faster or quicker than.

[hammb]

3 things. to BG.

2008

PG Jakubowski 6-2 So. Brown 6-2 Fr
SG Clements 6-4 Sr. Moten 6-4 Sr. Sims 6-1 Jr.
SF Miller 6-4 Sr Thomas 6-6 Fr
PF Knight 6-7 So. Marschall 6-7 Jr. Calhoun 6-7 Fr
C Larson 6-9 Jr. Polk 6-9 Jr. Madlock 6-8 So.

My idea of what our '08 lineup could look and maybe should look like is this.

PG Jakubowski 6-2 So. Brown 6-2 Fr.
SG Moten 6'4 Sr, Thomas 6'7 , Fr., Clements 6'4 Sr., Sims 6'1 Jr.
SF Knight 6'7 So. Calhoun 6'7 Fr. Miller 6'4 Sr. Clements 6'4 Sr.
PF Marschall 6'7 Jr. Madlock 6'8 So. Knight 6'7 So.
C Polk 6'9 Jr. Madlock 6'8 So./Marschall 6'7 Jr. Larson 6'9 Jr.

This assuming that Thomas and Calhoun are above average ball handlers for 6'7 that I'm hoping they are. The kind of players we need to stockpile this team with our 6'6-6'8 guys than can either play the SG/SF and handle the ball well and play facing the basket.

So our current best player is 3rd on the depth chart at sf. That is silly.

Ok , you can switch Miller and Calhoun if you want. Like Hammb has said , Miller has no range beyond 7, 8 ft. He should be getting down low on mismatches and exploiting them instead of roaming the 3pt line and trying to drive on guys he's not faster or quicker than.

While he is one dimensional he's still a better player than Moten or Knight right now. I'd be pretty surprised if that changes by next year. I have no problems with Nate Miller. I think he's a very good player, and he's very good at what he does. He plays solid defense, he's got quick hands. He's an outstanding rebounder for his size. He may not be quicker than the guys guarding him, but he uses his body well and gets to the rim without much problem against most defenders. He's a very good player, and he will be starting for us next year.

My only problem with Nate Miller is that we are relying on him and trying to make him into a 20 point guy which he'll never be. If you put him on a talented team where he could be the #2 or #3 option I think he'd be one of the best complementary players in the MAC. Problem is here he's our #1 option and defenses have been able to force him into his areas of weakness at times.

Last year, for instance, Miller looked like a better player. Not because he actually was better, but because Samarco was our #1 scoring threat. Now I'm not saying I want Samarco back, because he took plenty of stupid shots, but the fact is he opened up a lot for Nate. Right now Nate is the only guy on the roster who can bring a consistent game on offense. Teams are scheming to take that away.

I would not be in a hurry to bench Nate Miller. I'd, instead, be looking for people to step up in a more consistent manner around him so that he can go back to doing what he excels at.

[BleedOrange]

Let me emphasize this: It's one thing for a team to have a very bad game. However, what happened Sunday night goes beyond that. The complete, abject ineffectiveness or our performance can't be gleaned from the box score or the standings. It's very difficult to have any confidence at all after the way we played.

Here are the basics:

- Aside from Miller, we were completely unenergized on offense. There were few hard cuts. The movement without the basketball was non-existent. In half court sets, the complete lack of confidence on offense was visible and disheartening. Knight never seemed to make an effort to get open inside or on the perimeter. (The only time Knight would actually move was when he tried to block a shot.) Moten, as usual, did nothing in half court sets other than look for someone to pass the ball to like a hot potato. Not once did he, or has he, tried to drive to the basket for a basket or a dish. He's more of a 2nd basemen and a 2G. We had 5 open looks from the perimeter and converted 1 of them.

- Akron pressured us deep in the backcourt and we responded horribly. We have NOBODY that responds well to on-the-ball pressure on the perimeter. Hell, Floyd was better at this than anyone we have now. Akron trapped our ball handlers at will, and we were often very late with help. Taking advantage of an unguarded teammate was just a wild fantasy. As a team, we respond horribly to pressure.

- Our interior defense was conspicuously bad. They manufactured inside shots at will. They were taking us to the hole consistently and our help side defense was non-existent. We allowed ridiculous interior passing.

- We gave up silly steals and turnovers. Moten was cleaned out from behind on a fast break. Jakubowski dribbled directly into help side pressure on several occasions. Miller pivoted into help side defense and was cleaned out as well. Clements dribbled the ball off of his foot. Larson brought down the ball on his knee and it went out of bounds. Polk was called for similar traveling violations on consecutive plays.


Again, this was the worst half of BG basketball in my 30+ years of being a fan. After that "No-Pride Night" at the JAR, it will take something special to rekindle my desire to drive cross-state to AA. I have season tickets. I'm considering giving them away and checking out until next season.

Dare I say that after the Akron game, it would be appropriate for Orr, or Miller, or SOMEBODY, to step forward and explain exactly WTF happened?