The season ended Cavs thread...and NBA discussion in general

[Warthog]

A 1.4% chance changed the whole face of the franchise

And somehow I think this points out a basic flaw in the whole NBA system.They incentize teams to lose to get a better shot at the top pick. Yet time and time again, you see the sixth, seventh, eigth worst team end up with the top pick.

and now with some shrewd cap management the Bulls are in position to clean up and win more titles.

You call it shrewd cap management, I call it dumping salary/talent. But seriously, would you call what the Knicks have done shrewd cap management? They signed mediocre players to high salary deals. Made trades to give away draft picks and took on bad contracts. Then basically just started dumping players in any way possible so they could be in a position to sign two max contract free agents this offseason.

How will you feel about the Bulls giving away a player liek Hinrich if none of these free agents sign with the Bulls? Someone (Knicks?, Bulls?, Nets?) are going to be left holding the bag by not getting any body to sign with them. How will those fans feel about their 'shrewd cap management' when they still have all that cap room and same shitty roster heading into next season?

And to answer your other question, absolutely have to do a sign and trade. The Cavs have blown it so bad in regard to managing the cap that they can't simply let two contracts (LeBron and Shaq) simply walk with getting nothing in return. They really blew when they didn't trade Wally a season ago. An expiring contract is like gold in the NBA and you have to use that to get something.

[Jacobs4Heisman]

Getting rid of captain kirk was absolutely shrewd cap management - I'd even call it a coup. You can not pay your back-up point guard 10 mil a season. You just can't do it. To be able to offload that contract by only giving up the #17 pick is a fantastic accomplishment. The chances of finding even a rotation player at pick 17 is not great. I forget the numbers, but I think it's about 1 in 4 players picked in that range become rotation players.

I'd be happy about that with any contract of that size no matter what the circumstance, let alone when that 10 mil can turn into 3/5 of Chris Bosh, or 3/4 of David Lee or whoever. They will spend that 10 Mil this offseason somehow, and no matter how they do it, the team will be better than if they spent it on Hinrich. Even if it turns out to be Redick or Morrow at 6 mil if they do swing and miss on 2 big names, it's a way better value and fit than Hinrich at 10 mil.

And yes - the Knicks have done the best they could in preparing for this offseason. I think at worst they end up with STAT and Joe Johnson - that's a HUMONGOUS improvement over the collection of crap they had been paying. If they can somehow offload Curry or buy him out, that's even better. Cap management is a huge part of winning in the NBA. You have to try and avoid bad contracts, and if you do make a mistake, you have to find the best way to get out from under it. This summer just happened to provide a few teams extra incentive to go nuts and clear room.

And you're nuts if you don't think the Bulls will get at least 1, and probably 2 big guns even if they aren't named LeBron. The situation is just too desireable to completely fail.

[Flipper]

Cap space is half the equation...If you're Joe Dumars and you use it sign guys like Ben Gordon (when you already have Stuckey and Hamilton locked up for years) and Charlie Villanueva...well, cap space wasn't exactly your friend... An abundance of $$ will never be enough to overcome a lack of smarts...

[Falconboy]

Well it looks like former Laker Byron Scott is the Cav's new head coach. Don't think it helps keep Lebron if they can't upgrade the roster a bit , he gone regardless from the looks of things.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/stor ... NHeadlines

[Warthog]

he gone regardless from the looks of things.

Thanks Mr. Sunshine.

I still think it is just as likely he stays in Cleveland as leaving and going anywhere else.

[Jacobs4Heisman]

D-Wade is supposedly leaning towards hometown Chicago, and the Bulls are pushing to get an agreement before their meeting with LBJ tomorrow to set up a pairing on neutral turf (no way LBJ goes to Miami to play on "Wade's team"). Too many wild rumors flying around to tell if anything is for real, but tomorrow is shaping up to be the biggest day in the history of the Cavs franchise. The franchise would lose an estimated 250 mil in value immediately if bron-bron jumps ship.

LeBron says he will decide by Monday. If the Bulls sign Wade, there's no way LeBron can stay. If he doesn't go to Chicago, they'll get Bosh, and no way Cleveland's shitty roster can match that in a series. He'd have to go to the Nets most likely in that scenario, and hope they would get maybe David Lee or STAT, or maybe trade for Chris Paul to put together a very talented group to compete with Chicago.

This is going to be an amazing weekend.

[Warthog]

If the Bulls sign Wade, there's no way LeBron can stay.

I'd guess I don't understand the logic of that statement.

no way Cleveland's shitty roster can match that in a series.

You mean that same shitty roster that won 60+ games the last two seasons? And the same shitty roster that is actually better now with Shaq and Z? Two guys that only slowed the game down and kept Hickson on the bench? And the same shitty roster that will now have Jamison at PF all season? James, Jamison, Williams, West, Parker, Varajao, Hickson would be no match for Wade, Rose, Noah and a collection of stiffs?

[Jacobs4Heisman]

You mean that same shitty roster that won 60+ games the last two seasons?

That's the one. Without Bron, that team doesn't even sniff the playoffs. If the Bulls sign Wade (or bron), they're getting a top PF also. Most likely Bosh, but Boozer, Lee, and STAT would be brawling in the street to join that roster. Something like Noah/Lee/(insert SF and a bench piece since Deng would probably be traded)/Wade/Rose would be impossible for Cleveland to match. If it's Bosh instead of Lee, they would eviscerate the entire Eastern conference.

I think it's all moot, because I don't think anybody does anything before Bron, but as I've said for years, Bron is gone. If he goes to Chicago along with Wade or Bosh, the rest of the East can take the next 5 years off.

[Warthog]

You must have a lot better sources than everyone in the media if you know LeBron is leaving Cleveland for sure.

My argument about the Cavaliers competing with the Bulls was based on James re-signing with Cleveland. Even if the Bulls would get Bosh and Wade, with Rose and Noah and not much else, they still wouldn't be a foregone conclusion to win the East if LeBron stays in Cleveland.

[Jacobs4Heisman]

Did you really just say "Bosh, Wade, Rose, Noah, and not much else"? What else is there? The lakers bench was pretty terrible, but their starters were so stacked, they could deal. Those guys are all getting old, so they'll be less and less a factor. Rose and Noah willed a very shady, half-gutted, awfully coached roster to the playoffs, and their careers are already arcing up at a ridiculous rate. Give them a top-5 and top-10 player at complimentary positions, and look out. If they happen to nab LeBron and a good PF - it's over. If they strike out on the big 3, well, there's always alcohol.

I don't know he's leaving for sure, but following his actions, logic definitely dictates it. It's been my gut feeling for years, and it's gotten nothing but stronger seeing the events since they got bounced by Boston. I would be shocked at this point if he stays. I'm at about 90%. Delaying the announcement until after his camp in Akron this week clinched it for me.

[Warthog]

Bosh and Noah play the same position. How are they going to co-exist on the same team?

And I don't know why people are thinking Noah is such an important piece. His three year career average is 8 points and 8 rebounds. He and Varejao are basically the same player. Why would Noah draw LeBron to Chicago if Varejao isn't a reason for him to stay in Cleveland?

[Jacobs4Heisman]

You're killing me. Noah is a 5, and Bosh is a 4. Noah and Bosh are the perfect 4/5 combo. Perfect. Bosh needs a defensive minded Center to play off of, and the Bulls need an offensive 4 that can play the pick and roll with Rose. Good luck defending 40 Rose/Bosh PNRs all game with Noah roaming the boards. Nearly impossible.

Noah is a great piece because he's improving at such a rapid pace, and he's already better than Varejao. His PER was 24th in the East last year (higher than any Cav not named LeBron), and Varejao was in the 50s. Noah is also 2 years younger. They are definitely similar players, but Noah's better in almost every way. Varejao has a better TS%, which can be explained by his much lower usage, and Noah has a higher turnover rate, which is complemented by his higher assist rate. The big stat for guys like this is rebound rate, and Noah crushes Varejao there.

Noah's an ass, but it's really not difficult to understand why he's a big FA draw to Chi. Then you have Rose, who is clearly special. PG and Center are the two most difficult things to find, and the Bulls have 2 young cornerstones there.

The bottom line is that if LeBron truly cares about winning above all else, he will find a way to pair with Bosh in Chi. That team would be unstoppable for years.

[Jacobs4Heisman]

Sources say Raptors would agree to a sign and trade with Cle. for Bosh. Problem is Bosh doesn't want to go to Cleveland. If Bron can convince him, we might have a whole new ballgame. Depends on what Cleveland would have to give up (probably not much), and if LeBron thinks that upgrade is enough to get over the hump. LBJ and Bosh would be a pretty fearsome duo, no matter what Cleveland could put around them. A bunch of min-salary players could win 50 games no sweat with those 2.

I wouldn't even be that upset, since this scenario would probably clinch Wade +Boozer/Lee to Chi, which could set up some awesome ECFs for the next 5 years.

The next few days are going to be absolutely insane.

[hammb]

Sources say Raptors would agree to a sign and trade with Cle. for Bosh. Problem is Bosh doesn't want to go to Cleveland. If Bron can convince him, we might have a whole new ballgame. Depends on what Cleveland would have to give up (probably not much), and if LeBron thinks that upgrade is enough to get over the hump. LBJ and Bosh would be a pretty fearsome duo, no matter what Cleveland could put around them. A bunch of min-salary players could win 50 games no sweat with those 2.

I wouldn't even be that upset, since this scenario would probably clinch Wade +Boozer/Lee to Chi, which could set up some awesome ECFs for the next 5 years.

The next few days are going to be absolutely insane.

I have been thinking for a few days that a sign and trade for Bosh is the one way that Cleveland could probably keep LeBron.

As for what they'd give up I'm sure it starts at Hickson plus a 1st round pick. Really Hickson is the only player that has much trade value. Of course Jamison's contract is expiring, so that could have value too, I suppose.

LeBron/Bosh/MoWilliams is a pretty good top 3. I could see that team being a legit contender for years.

I still think LeBron wants to stay BADLY because of his ego. He knows that right now he is a hero and is adored in his hometown. He also knows that if he were to leave he could probably never show his face in his hometown again. Say what you will, but that has value...especially for somebody who seems to care as much about his public image as anything else. Still, I think LeBron also wants to win and realizes that unless they can work something out for Bosh winning isn't really gonna happen in Cleveland.

Should be interesting.

[Jacobs4Heisman]

The reported package actually is a ton more that I would think. J.J. Varejao, Delonte, and Parker + a pick. The pick would be garbage, but that's a ton of Cleveland's depth gone, especially with all the injury prone-ness/age of the rest of the roster. I think this paints a pretty clear picture of LeBron telling the Cavs "I want to stay, but if you can't seriously improve this team right now, I'm leaving."

Cavs are in desperation mode as they should be, and for their sake they better hope Bosh changes his mind on Cleveland. The poor Cavs may just be too geographically challenged to live.