A developing big 10 [11] theory (in my head!)

kdog27 · Post by **kdog27** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:08 am

I picked some random sports to show you how good the Big ten is in other sports. The conference games/meets, we would be destroyed. I love BGSU but we could not compete with these schools. How many national championships does BGSU own in all sports? I don't the answer to that question but I can only think of two.
Men's gymastics
RANKING TEAM REGION SCORE
1 Illinois East 220.708
2 Oklahoma West 220.342
3 Ohio State East 217.983
4 Penn State East 217.983
5 California West 217.367
6 Iowa East 217.083
7 Michigan East 216.017
8 Nebraska West 213.417
9 Stanford West 212.750
10 Illinois-Chicago East 212.042
11 Minnesota East 211.217
12 Army East 210.417
13 William and Mary East 210.083
14 Temple East 208.817
15 Navy East 206

Men's XC
1 Wisconsin (12) GL 418 1 1 1Q
2 Arkansas (2) SC 403 3 4 1Q
3 Stanford W 395 2 2 1Q
4 Colorado MT 379 4 3 1Q
5 Notre Dame GL 361 5 5 2Q
6 Georgetown MA 334 7 7= 1Q
7 Arizona State W 333 8 9 2Q
8 BYU MT 317 9 10 2Q
9 Cal Poly San Luis Obispo W 284 6 6 3q
10 Butler GL 280 13 14 3q
11 Providence NE 275 16 22 1Q
12 North Carolina State SE 243 11 16 1Q
13 Michigan GL 237 23 7= 4q
14 Air Force MT 235 14 12 3q
15 Minnesota MW 209 22 19 1Q
16 Iona College NE 206 15 15 2Q
17 Indiana GL 192 10 13 5q
18 Florida State S 188 12 11 1Q
19 New Mexico MT 166 20 23 4q
20 Texas SC 156 19 29 2Q
21 American MA 130 -- -- 2Q
22 Oklahoma State MW 128 25 21 2Q
23 Ohio State GL 117 29 -- 6q
24 Colorado State MT 97 24 17 5q
25 Iowa MW 93 17 30 3q
26 Florida S 90 21 20 2Q
27 William & Mary SE 75 30 -- 2Q
28 Michigan State GL 68 -- 27 7q
29 Central Michigan GL 29 26 25 8q
30 Northern Arizona MT 28 28 24 6q
-- Villanova MA 18 18 5
-- Oregon W 27 28
Women's XC
1 Stanford (13) W 390 1 1 1Q
2 Providence NE 371 2 2 1Q
3 Colorado MT 364 3 3 1Q
4 Michigan GL 352 4 4 1Q
5 Duke SE 336 5 5 1Q
6 Notre Dame GL 318 6 6 2Q
7 Arizona State W 315 7 8 2Q
8 North Carolina State SE 294 10 10 2Q
9 Missouri MW 270 9 9 1Q
10 North Carolina SE 253 8 7 3q
11 Brigham Young MT 250 11 12 2Q
12 Southern Methodist SC 237 12 13 1Q
13 Michigan State GL 233 13 11 3q
14 Tennessee S 217 15 14 1Q
15 West Virginia MA 211 28 22 1Q
16 Columbia NE 185 19 28 2Q
17 UC - Santa Barbara W 178 17 16 3q
18 Villanova MA 172 14 15 2Q
19 Arkansas SC 168 18 20 2Q
20 Georgia S 150 22 17 2Q
21 Illinois MW 145 16 27 2Q
22 Princeton MA 105 20 19 3q
23 Wake Forest SE 99 21 18 4q
24 Indiana GL 84 27 21 4q
25 Idaho W 75 -- 23 4q
26 Colorado State MT 63.5 23 24 3q
27 Oklahoma State MW 48 26 -- 3
28 Baylor SC 44 -- -- 3q
29 Georgetown MA 29 24 -- 4
30 Washington W 21 25 -- 5q
-- Boston College NE 29 25 4
-- Butler GL 30 29 6q
-- Marquette GL -- 30 5q

Women's gymnastics
GymInfo - 2005 Women's Pre-Season Coaches Poll
Rank Team Points 1st place votes
1 UCLA 608 15
2 Georgia 565 3
3 Stanford 554 4
4 Alabama 531 1
5 Utah 530 2
6 Florida 510 1
7 Michigan 479
8 LSU 444
9 Arizona State 387
10 Nebraska 386
11 Oklahoma 352
12 Oregon State 280
13 Arizona 264
14 Iowa State 256
15 North Carolina 240
16 Auburn 221
17 Iowa 196
18 Brigham Young 178
19 Penn State 173
20 Denver 160
21 Washington 117
22 Missouri 105
23 West Virginia 92
24 Arkansas 90
25 California 86
Other team receiving votes:
Minnesota, Michigan State, Illinois, Boise State, Utah State, Southern Utah , NC State, Ohio State, New Hampshire, Kent State, Maryland, North Carolina State, Pittsburgh, Illinois-Chicago, Kentucky, San Jose State, Fullerton

Men's Soccer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank School W-L-T Prev.
1 Indiana University 18-4-2 6
2 UC Santa Barbara 21-2-2 1
3 University of Maryland 17-6-2 7
4 Duke University 18-6-0 RV
5 St. John's University 12-6-4 13
5 University of Virginia 18-5-1 3
7 Virginia Commonwealth University 12-6-3 22
8 University of Tulsa 12-7-4 NR
9 University of North Carolina, Greensboro 19-3-1 3
10 University of New Mexico 17-1-2 3
11 Southern Methodist University 16-4-1 2
12 Wake Forest University 14-5-2 10
13 Creighton University 14-4-2 16
14 UCLA 14-4-2 8
15 Boston College 13-5-2 15
16 Ohio State University 12-7-2 NR
17 University of Notre Dame 13-3-3 9
18 University of California 13-4-3 23
19 Old Dominion University 13-6-2 19
0 College of Charleston 17-6-1 16
20 Penn State University 10-4-8 12
22 University of Connecticut 12-8-3 14
23 University of Michigan 11-8-4 NR
24 University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee 14-5-3 NR
25 University of Memphis 16-4-1 11

Women's Soccer
Rank School W-L-T Prev.
1 University of Notre Dame 24-1-1 2
2 UCLA 18-7-0 11
3 Santa Clara University 18-5-2 4
4 Princeton University 19-3-0 12
5 University of North Carolina 20-1-2 1
6 University of Portland 20-4-0 6
7 University of Virginia 17-3-2 3
8 Ohio State University 19-4-3 8
9 Penn State University 19-3-1 5
0 University of Washington 17-5-1 14
11 Duke University 15-8-0 18
11 University of Tennessee 17-5-2 10
13 University of Connecticut 18-7-1 15
14 University of Illinois 16-6-2 19
15 Texas A&M University 18-6-0 7
16 University of Texas 15-7-2 20
17 Boston College 15-7-1 25
18 University of Kansas 18-5-0 13
19 Auburn University 15-4-2 16
19 Stanford University 13-6-3 25
21 University of Florida 16-4-3 9
22 University of Nebraska 14-9-0 NR
23 Villanova University 14-6-2 23
24 University of Maryland 9-7-4 NR
25 University of Arizona

kdog27 · Post by **kdog27** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:12 am

Bleeding Orange wrote:Go ask the players on the non-revenue teams how they would feel about the opportunity to compete against Big 10 competition on a regular basis. Seriously.

Whether they would like the oppurtunity has nothing to do with it. I would like to be an olympic skier, it doesnt mean it is going happen. The question is can they compete with these schools.

Bleeding Orange · Post by **Bleeding Orange** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:12 am

Bleeding Orange wrote:They would improve along with everything else. Yes, it may take longer in these sports, but they are non-revenue sports and the demand to be competative quickly would surely not be as great as it would be for football and basketball, and we already have a leg up in those sports.

Go ask the players on the non-revenue teams how they would feel about the opportunity to compete against Big 10 competition on a regular basis. Seriously.

I hate to quote myself, but I reiterate...

kdog27 · Post by **kdog27** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:20 am

Bleeding Orange wrote:
Bleeding Orange wrote:They would improve along with everything else. Yes, it may take longer in these sports, but they are non-revenue sports and the demand to be competative quickly would surely not be as great as it would be for football and basketball, and we already have a leg up in those sports.

Go ask the players on the non-revenue teams how they would feel about the opportunity to compete against Big 10 competition on a regular basis. Seriously.
I hate to quote myself, but I reiterate...

BOrange, I admire your optimistic views and I agree these sports would improve. But you have to look at what is going on NOW. The Big 10 doesn't want to bring in schools that are going be doormats for the next 5 seasons, they want teams that are going bring the conference natl titles.
The truth is the average person has no idea where/what BGSU is. My girlfriend lives on the East coast, when I visit her and wear my BGSU stuff, most people have no idea what BGSU means. Think anyone ever asks that about OSU or PSU?

Metz · Post by **Metz** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:24 am

Bleeding Orange wrote: Which is why I said that dropping a team like Indiana is the most improbable of all options.

Yeah, so I can't read. I swear it said probable the first time I read over that!

Bleeding Orange wrote:They would improve along with everything else. Yes, it may take longer in these sports, but they are non-revenue sports and the demand to be competative quickly would surely not be as great as it would be for football and basketball, and we already have a leg up in those sports.

Go ask the players on the non-revenue teams how they would feel about the opportunity to compete against Big 10 competition on a regular basis. Seriously.

I can agree with all of this. With a conference change, improvements would be made because I feel recruiting would change a lot. In all sports, players would much rather go to a Big Ten school over a MAC school if they could IMO. But I have to agree with KDog...would the Big Ten really want BG? I would love to see us in a better conference and I think if we could get into one, it's be a HUGE step foward. In past threads, I have even mentioned the Big East as our most realistic. But the fact of the matter is, I don't see any conference wanting us in the future.

orangeandbrown · Post by **orangeandbrown** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:45 am

Bleeding Orange wrote:I must say that, right or wrong, I am shocked by the negativity that this post has recieved initially. The conception that you all seem to have of Bowling Green is a little sad, in my opinion. Academically we are one of the best schools in the state, if not the best at this point (size notwithstanding). We have been on an upward trend in most areas since 1995. We are gaining national respect for a lot, not just our football program (which doesn't hurt, either).

I was hoping that we could have a semi-controlled and serious discussion about this, but it seems that none of you so far are even willing to consider it.

What in the hell do we compete for if we aren't in it to improve? Jeez...

Well, you begged people to give you their thoughts, and they did. I think most of the posters have had a semi-controlled and serious discussion on your post. No one attacked you or your post. People responded with their own reasons why they disagreed.

As for why we compete, we compete for lots of reasons, and improving is one of them. And the university is on an upward trend, no doubt. The problem is "improving" to where we gain other people's respect and move into the BCS level is trying to win a game with no rules and where the judges are the people who would have to share their resources with us if we moved up to that level.

Sorry if you were hoping for more, but I don't think we're ever going to be more than a mid-major. My goal is for us to be the best mid-major program. Today, we're not even the best in our conference, so we've got a ways to go. If we get to where we are a dominant mid-major, we can talk about moving up.

Lord_Byron · Post by **Lord_Byron** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:19 am

Bleeding, don't take the responses personally. You raised a pretty radical point here.

As far as the Big Televen expanding, what happend when they added Penn State is very instructive. The college presidents control membership in the conference. They invited PSU on the basis of fit with the rest of the conference on academic mission over the objections of the Athletic Directors.

Their stated reason for adding PSU was that they were a conference of major public research institutions (Northwestern excepted) and PSU fit nicely with that. Not sure any of the MAC schools, with the exception of Buffalo (which is the principle public research university in NY), fit the criteria.

PGY Tiercel · Post by **PGY Tiercel** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:35 am

In response to Kdog27's list, we don't even have most of those sports. The shear number of teams that big ten schools have prevents us from ever joining that conference. PSU has 29, OSU has 35 teams.

BTW, PSU is ranked 3rd in the preseason polls of men's gymnastics, and is the defending Nat' champs. (my brother is on the team.)

hammb · Post by **hammb** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:47 am

I'm with you Bleeding in my dream. I have made it quite clear on here over the years that I have big hopes for BG. I will not be happy until we are having undefeated seasons, and playing the Utah Role in the BCS. I want a shot at national titles, and I've made that quite clear as well.

In some ways I'm quite tired of the MAC as well. As much as I enjoy winning, beating the nobodies of the MAC by 50 points starts to get boring. I would love NOTHING more than to have BG move to a bigger conference, and the Big10 would be perfect.

But...there's always a but.

I just cannot realistically ever see it happening. As has been mentioned in this thread countless times the Big 10 takes all sports seriously, and we would get trounced in everything outside of football and maybe basketball.

More importantly though is something that's only been mentioned by a couple people here and not really discussed is the overall feel of the university. BG is a great school. I got a great education, and I don't for one second want to hear people from the Big 10 tell me their education was better. However, the Big10 universities are almost all built on graduate research. I wish I could find the numbers, but some quick googling came up empty. I seem to recall reading a few years ago that all 11 of the Big 10 schools were in the top 25 of university research spending. That is their mission, and means more than you believe. In terms of graduate research we are not even a speck on the floor of what Big 10 Universities are doing. I don't mean to demean anything that goes on at BG, but we are just not even close to that level.

As much as ND could bring to the ND table, there were still cries from some Big 10 people that they didn't fit the academic model. ND! If some people are actually questioning whether or not ND fits the academic model, can you imagine the outcry about a MAC school!?

Don't get me wrong, I share the dream. I want it as bad as anyone. Geographically the Big 10 does make perfect sense. In football it seems to make perfect sense. But other than that it makes no sense at all. The other conferences don't hold their members to quite the academic standards of the Big 10, so if it were to ever happen I don't think the Big 10 would be it. Unfortunately the Big East or other conference starts to make travel cost prohibitive for away games.

I still think that the best way for BG to reach the big time in college football is for a structure change that allows all conferences a chance to reach the title. Look what the hoops tourney has done for Gonzaga. I just don't think moving to a bigger conference is in the cards for us right now.

Warthog · Post by **Warthog** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:47 am

While I would like to be optimistic about a MAC team at some point moving into the Big Ten, I just can't see it ever happening. If the Big Ten would ever expand, I think the list of schools they would be interested in would look something like this:
1. Notre Dame - no explanation needed.
2. Iowa State - they fit is perfectly with the geography of the Big Ten and provide a natural rival for Iowa. Plus, it would be a marketing coo to steal a decent school from the Big 8, er 12.
3. Kentucky - mostly the same reasons as Iowa State
4. Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Louisville - programs that are improving, but not quite up tot he standards of what the Big Ten would like them to meet. And the Big Ten seems to focus on "state-named" schools, not "city-named" schools so that would hold back Pitt and Louisville.

Just my opinion, but a MAC school doesn't even make the list for consideration.

bgfanwisc · Post by **bgfanwisc** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:59 am

I know you said you'll slap anyone who brings up attendance, so I'll slap you first. Big Ten teams consistently sell out home games against inferior non conference foes. We don't even sell out games against our rivals. We didn't sell out the MAC championship game. So don't assume more people will show up just because we are in the Big 10. Would people really care that schools other than OSU would come. They would have more fans than we do.

PGY Tiercel · Post by **PGY Tiercel** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:09 am

Warthog wrote:While I would like to be optimistic about a MAC team at some point moving into the Big Ten, I just can't see it ever happening. If the Big Ten would ever expand, I think the list of schools they would be interested in would look something like this:
1. Notre Dame - no explanation needed.
2. Iowa State - they fit is perfectly with the geography of the Big Ten and provide a natural rival for Iowa. Plus, it would be a marketing coo to steal a decent school from the Big 8, er 12.
3. Kentucky - mostly the same reasons as Iowa State
4. Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Louisville - programs that are improving, but not quite up tot he standards of what the Big Ten would like them to meet. And the Big Ten seems to focus on "state-named" schools, not "city-named" schools so that would hold back Pitt and Louisville.

Just my opinion, but a MAC school doesn't even make the list for consideration.

Kentucky? While the Big Ten might by interested, UK has great teams in many sports, a huge fan base, and they academic research money to make us attractive. That being said UK would never leave the SEC, first off, before I even get into sports, Kentucky thinks they are part of the south, no way they would ever join a group of Yankee schools. That being said, The rivalries are too great in the SEC for UK to leave. It my eyes if would be a lateral move from SEC to Big Ten, Anyone else from around here would say it is a step down. Then again UK is part MAC.

The other schools seem quite reasonable.

Warthog · Post by **Warthog** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:16 am

PGY, I was writing that from the Big Ten perspective. I think they would snag Kentucky if they could. But what you say is valid that it is doubtful that UK would want to leave the SEC.

1987alum · Post by **1987alum** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:26 am

FalconKing wrote:The only school I see joining the Big 10 is ND, but before that can happen, NBC will have to not renew its contract with the school. At that time, from a financial basis, they will have to join the Big 10 to pull in anywhere near what they are accustomed in football revenue.

I really doubt any team would be dumped from the Big 10, but even if they did....they could not have a conference championship game. You need to have two divisions of at least six teams by NCAA regulations. The ACC tried to get a waiver for this season before BC joined, but were denied. Starting in 2005, they will have a North vs South championship game.

King: Bingo, Bango, Bongo!

The thinly veiled dance between the Big 10 ... Big 11 ... Big Number ... and Notre Dame will come to its inevitable conclusion soon enough. It's just a matter of time.

ND is finding out that life as an independent in an era of the BCS and fewer schollies is a lot tougher than the glory days. Their recent coach fiasco showed that they are another step closer to a football factory.

Schadenfreude made an excellent post about a new conference member fitting in with regards to the "character" of the academic institution. ND certainly fits the Big 10 ... Big 11 ... Big Number ... mold better than any MAC school. That's not a slam.

As for dropping Indiana, that seems unlikely. While they are a football patsie, they have a strong basketball tradition.

1987alum · Post by **1987alum** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:29 am

Lord_Byron wrote:Bleeding, don't take the responses personally. You raised a pretty radical point here.

As far as the Big Televen expanding, what happend when they added Penn State is very instructive. The college presidents control membership in the conference. They invited PSU on the basis of fit with the rest of the conference on academic mission over the objections of the Athletic Directors.

Their stated reason for adding PSU was that they were a conference of major public research institutions (Northwestern excepted) and PSU fit nicely with that. Not sure any of the MAC schools, with the exception of Buffalo (which is the principle public research university in NY), fit the criteria.

Byron: Great insight and excellent post!