2010 NFL Season Thread

[Flipper]

Ndamukong Suh lined up at DT, DE and LB during Sunday's 44-6 rout of the St Louis Rams. That kid is a scary good football player....

[TG1996]

Ndamukong Suh lined up at DT, DE and LB during Sunday's 44-6 rout of the St Louis Rams. That kid is a scary good football player....

Not only is he learning numerous positions, but he's also finding out that throwing a QB down by the neck is about $18K cheaper than tweeting too close to game time and $23K than flipping the bird to a referee.

[cw08]

Should be fun watching that game. The Steelers get Roethlisberger back and the Browns are going in with their #3 QB, and at the very least a banged up Hillis.

It's probably gonna be real ugly, real quick. But then I'm one that doesn't think McCoy deserves an NFL roster spot, let alone to be PLAYING on Sundays.

You and me both, Hamm. Just think if we had Sanchez-Edwards-Sexy Rexy instead of McCoy-Massacan'tstayinbounds-Mangini. I root for the Jets now because they're the Browns if anyone in Cleveland knew what the hell they were doing between January of 2009 and now.

[hammb]

Should be fun watching that game. The Steelers get Roethlisberger back and the Browns are going in with their #3 QB, and at the very least a banged up Hillis.

It's probably gonna be real ugly, real quick. But then I'm one that doesn't think McCoy deserves an NFL roster spot, let alone to be PLAYING on Sundays.

You and me both, Hamm. Just think if we had Sanchez-Edwards-Sexy Rexy instead of McCoy-Massacan'tstayinbounds-Mangini. I root for the Jets now because they're the Browns if anyone in Cleveland knew what the hell they were doing between January of 2009 and now.

The f**k ups in Cleveland have been unbelievably bad the past few years. First they hired that dipshit Mangini. They let him choose his own GM. Of course being the egotistical power monger that he is he goes out and hires some piece of trash who will blow him while Mangini takes over all the GM duties.

In one year of controlling a roster I've never seen one moron screw up a team so much. He trades the only 2 offensive threats the team has had in the past decade for draft picks...and not even high draft picks. (I was okay with moving Winslow, he was not worth that money, but Edwards was reasonably priced and a necessary threat to open the offense). At the same time he DOESN'T make a move on the two worthless QBs, at least one of whom (Quinn) still harbored some worthwhile trade value during the '09 offseason.

Then he goes into the draft and instead of addressing the QB situation by taking a potential franchise guy (Sanchez) he trades down. Then rather than replace the offensive playmakers that he has already shipped one of away (and is considering moving the other) he trades down again. To the point where he turned a top 5 pick (and franchise QB prospect) into a fu**ing Center. That's right...A CENTER. OOOOOHHHH BOY! A CENTER!!!! Oh yeah...we also got a bunch of garbage the Jet's didn't want and some late round picks.

Now in the 2nd round he tries to fill the playmaker hole he created with substandard talents, one of whom should no longer be in the league. He drafts a DL converts him to LB and tries to make him learn all 4 for LB positions rather than concentrating on one...he IS out of the league. He also gave away a promising DB because he tried to slip him through waivers while he was hurt to save a single roster spot for camp.

The day Randy Lerner hired Eric Mangini may go down as the worst day in Browns history. That man has totally ass raped the organization...he gutted the roster of what talent it did have and then totally blew the '09 draft. I'm still appalled that Holmgren kept him on board. The only rationalization I can make for it is 1) They didn't want to pay another head coach during the upcoming lockout year, and 2) Holmgren is waiting until he wants to take over himself, or he can get somebody else he's familiar with (Gruden, Mooch, etc).

[Warthog]

Now in the 2nd round he tries to fill the playmaker hole he created with substandard talents, one of whom should no longer be in the league. He drafts a DL converts him to LB and tries to make him learn all 4 for LB positions rather than concentrating on one...he IS out of the league.

hammb, I not nearly as much of a Mangini-hater as you. After all, he somehow managed to win four games in a row to finish the season. Given the talent on the team, that was a major accomplishment. But it also cost them a shot at Bradford, so...

But I do have to agree that the 2009 draft was a complete clusterfuck. I don't remember all the details and what trades brought what picks, but maybe after trading down with the Jets, they had like the 20th pick, and three second rounders. While Mack is a solid all-Pro potential center, they could have just drafted Maclin there, but they traded down with the Eagles. Maclin could have replaced Edwards as your playmaker.

Holy crap, I just looked back at that draft and it makes me want to vomit. Browns were at 19 and traded down with the Eagles at that point. Here is how the draft went from there:
Eagles (From Buccaneers through Browns) Maclin, Jeremy WR 6'0" 198 Missouri
Lions (From Cowboys) Pettigrew, Brandon TE 6'5" 263 Oklahoma State
Browns (From Eagles) Mack, Alex C 6'4" 311 California
Vikings Harvin, Percy WR 5'11" 192 Florida
Ravens (From Patriots) Oher, Michael OT 6'5" 309 Mississippi
Falcons Jerry, Peria DT 6'2" 299 Mississippi
Dolphins Davis, Vontae CB 5'11" 203 Illinois
Packers (From Ravens through Patriots) Matthews, Clay OLB 6'3" 240 Southern Cal
Colts Brown, Donald RB 5'10" 210 Connecticut
Bills (From Panthers through Eagles) Wood, Eric C 6'4" 310 Louisville
Giants Nicks, Hakeem WR 6'1" 212 North Carolina
Titans Britt, Kenny

Maclin, Harvin, Pettigrew, Davis, Matthews, Nicks all available then at positions the Browns needed help at. How did they end up picking Mack???

But that second round is really what killed the Browns. MM has some potential, but as you said, Veinkune is already out of football and Robiske should be. It's so easy to look back and say: take Maclin/Harvin/Nicks in first round and then you don't pick Robiske. They could take Maluagua at the top of the second and that keeps you from picking Veinkune later. Still could pick MM, but after the Veinkune pick, the next two picks were RB McCoy and RT Loadholt. Either of them would look great with the Browns.

In summary, I could change the Mack/Robiske/MM/Veineknue into Nicks/Maualuga/MM/Mccoy or Loadholt. With that many picks that early in the draft, you can't make the mistakes like the Browns made. They could have built a solid foundation to turn the team around. Instead, we have a center.

[cw08]

Or take Sanchez, keep Edwards and draft a lineman in the second round or a running back or a better linebacker. Mangini is a jackass. There are 100 combinations in that offseason that would have made this team better.

[Warthog]

I still don't think drafting Sanchez was the answer. WAY too many holes that needed filled. Trading down for more picks was fine with me. But you have to make good picks, not guys like Robiske and Veinekune.

Edwards is a jackhole. Don't miss him and his dropped passes at all.

[hammb]

I will give Mangini some credit as a coach. To win 5 games with that roster last year was overachieving. To be in every game this year, and have 1 win, is again overachieving.

However, I am a Mangini hater for a few reasons not directly related to how well he does with the talent he's got.

1) I largely blame him for the lack of talent on the roster. The abysmal 2009 offseason should be largely attributed to him.
2) I don't think he wants talent, or knows how to coach talent. I think he is afraid of dealing with the types of egos that come along with supremely talented players, and would much rather work with lesser talented "team-first" type guys. Those guys are great to have, but you MUST supplement them with some supremely talented players...I don't ever see Mangini working well with those types of players.
3) I think he plays an incredibly conservative style of football that can help a bad team stay competitive against more talented opposition, but will never work with the consistency to be a playoff/superbowl contender. It keeps the games close regardless of whether you're better OR worse than your competition.

#1 is now irrelevant. #2 might be lessened now that he's got a real GM/President that should get the best players regardless of the types Mangini wants. #3 still worries me though. Is he running this defense/grind out a game system because it's the only system he knows and what he wants, or is it because this is the only way you can hope to compete with the current talent level. That's a chicken or egg thing. I'm not a fan of defensive minded head coaches and I'm leaning towards the former, but if he'd be more willing to take chances as the talent level increases then maybe there is hope for him...I still would rather see him gone and get a HC that fits the mold that Holmgren/Heckert have worked with in the past, though.

Also you forgot a trade in your '09 draft review. They originally traded the #5 for the #17. They gave that up so Tampa could take Freeman. They gave up the #19 for Maclin. I was SCREAMING for Maclin at the time...I actually wouldn't have complained about him in the top 10, I thought he was a stud. But I definitely would have taken him after the trade down. I would definitely have taken Oher, Wells, or Harvin over Mack as well where we picked.

In the 2nd round you gave 2 names that I really liked going into the draft. I was a HUGE HUGE HUGE fan of LeSean McCoy, and was pissed when we passed him over (I believe more than once). I was also a fan of Loadholt, thought he'd make a pretty good RT right off the bat. I wouldn't have touched Robiskie with a 20 foot pole. I wasn't a big fan of Mauluga either, and I still don't think he's all that. He would have been decent value and a helluva lot better than Veikune though.

I think THAT is what has me so pissed off about that '09 draft. The players the Browns took were guys I didn't like (Veikune, Robiskie especially), and they have been failures. Combined with the fact that a lot of the guys I did like (Sanchez, Maclin, McCoy, Loadholt) have all been pretty damn good. I will admit I was high on Alex Mack, but I thought he was an option for our high 2nd rounder. I wouldn't EVER use the #21 pick on a freaking Center.

[hammb]

I still don't think drafting Sanchez was the answer. WAY too many holes that needed filled. Trading down for more picks was fine with me. But you have to make good picks, not guys like Robiske and Veinekune.

Edwards is a jackhole. Don't miss him and his dropped passes at all.

Disagree entirely. If you don't have a franchise QB and you think one is available YOU TAKE HIM. Going into that '09 offseason it was clear that DA was a total fluke, and was looking like Quinn wasn't going to develop either. On top of that Quinn still held a decent trade value. Rumors had it at a 1st rounder offered, which I Don't believe, but I DO think you could have added an additional 2nd or 3rd rounder and taken Sanchez as your future at the position. With Edwards on the team they had a weapon for a young QB and a pretty good OL. The team could have taken the QB prospect.

I wasn't sold on Sanchez from what I saw at USC, but apparently EVERYBODY that spoke with him fell in love with him. That's how he flew up draft boards...he showed a great mental capacity for the game. If our staff would have recognized that then they should have taken him.

As for Edwards I also disagree completely. Braylon did so much for that offense, his drops were irrelevant. The difference is night and day. Ask Massoquoi how much he misses Edwards.

Yeah, Braylon dropped a ton of passes and was never going to be as productive as you would hope, but he was a guy that defenses had to actually gameplan around and respect. He made guys like Massoquoi so much better.

Braylon was never the big time player that he looked like he'd become in '07, but he was still good enough to draw coverages and open up the offense. I wouldn't pay him the type of money he'll get as a FA, but the team misses him far more than most fans realize. It's really quite pathetic, and not even hindsight, but if I were running this team the past 2 years they would be FAR better off. We wouldn't have Alex Mack, but we would have Sanchez, Edwards, McCoy, and Loadholt. I like that offense a helluva lot better than the crap we've got now.

[Jacobs4Heisman]

Disagree about not taking a center in the first. The Steelers offensive line is so much better this year, and Pouncey is getting a ton of credit for that. When your main division competitor has a guy like Ngata, you need to have a big time center to compete.

Different situations of course, as the browns had more pressing needs, but I can't summarily say it's never a good idea to take a center in the first round.

I think the browns should sign and start Ratliff or some other fodder this week if they think McCoy has any shot at being a long term answer. Starting a rookie against this type of defense on the road with minimal talent around him is a recipe for ruining a psyche. Hell, they'd be better off running Wildcat with Cribbs 100% of the time.

[cw08]

Pouncey was a good pick for a team that has talent at pretty much every other position. Mack was a wasted pick(The Browns already had a decent center on a solid O-line) and Sanchez is probably going to the Pro Bowl this year. His improvement from the beginning of last year to now is amazing. He has one turnover between the playoffs and now, an interception that his receiver(not Braylon Edwards) let glance off his hands on a late drive in the AFC Championship.
Hamm is right about Edwards. He was the best receiver the franchise has had since Reggie Rucker, hands down. He's still a legitimate No. 1 and he's proving it this season.
Now that the Browns traded Harrison, who on this team could score on any given play?

[Jacobs4Heisman]

Just Cribbs, and if history repeats itself, he'll do it about twice on Sunday.

Agreed - Mack was as silly of a pick given the circumstances as Pouncey was a fantastic pick.

McCoy could score on any given play Sunday, but not for the Browns.

[hammb]

I dunno J4H, I still wouldn't use a 1st on a Center. Pouncey has been great for Pittsburgh, and they can certainly afford to take a center in the first round since they are so good across the board already, but I still don't think that you're getting great value for a Center in the first round. The top rated centers in the draft will go in the 2nd round in most years. Many of those guys go on to be the best centers in the league.

The only way it can really be excused, IMO, is if you are a team like Pittsburgh that has an IMMEDIATE need at the position. That, to me, seems to be the big difference between a 1st round Center and one you would find in the 2nd-3rd. The first rounders can come in and play at the position right away. I suppose that has value if you're a perennial contender like Pittsburgh, but I still think you could get better value for that pick than a new starting Center.

Either way, if you're a team as full of holes and devoid of playmakers as the Browns are/were to use a first rounder on a Center is just insanely stupid.

As to this week the Browns did sign Ratliff, but I doubt he'll start over McCoy. Personally I don't believe in ruining a QB (or any other player for that matter). If he is ever going to be good enough to play in the NFL (which I don't think he will) then one bad game thrown into the fire against a good defense shouldn't be enough to ruin his psyche.

[tiznow]

Reggie Rucker almost forgot about him. He was horrible as an analyst on NBC. How about Fair Hooker?

As a Steeler fan, I would pick Webster Slaughter or Dave Logan as WR that caused the Steelers fits since that time period.

[Jacobs4Heisman]

I dunno J4H, I still wouldn't use a 1st on a Center. Pouncey has been great for Pittsburgh, and they can certainly afford to take a center in the first round since they are so good across the board already, but I still don't think that you're getting great value for a Center in the first round. The top rated centers in the draft will go in the 2nd round in most years. Many of those guys go on to be the best centers in the league.

The only way it can really be excused, IMO, is if you are a team like Pittsburgh that has an IMMEDIATE need at the position. That, to me, seems to be the big difference between a 1st round Center and one you would find in the 2nd-3rd. The first rounders can come in and play at the position right away. I suppose that has value if you're a perennial contender like Pittsburgh, but I still think you could get better value for that pick than a new starting Center.

Either way, if you're a team as full of holes and devoid of playmakers as the Browns are/were to use a first rounder on a Center is just insanely stupid.

As to this week the Browns did sign Ratliff, but I doubt he'll start over McCoy. Personally I don't believe in ruining a QB (or any other player for that matter). If he is ever going to be good enough to play in the NFL (which I don't think he will) then one bad game thrown into the fire against a good defense shouldn't be enough to ruin his psyche.

I would have 100% agreed with you until I saw the effect Pouncey had on this O-line. Worth every penny, and he wouldn't be there in the 2nd.

If James Harrison rips McCoy's arms off and beats him to death with them, that'll ruin him pretty well.