2010 NFL Season Thread

[tiznow]

I agree on Pouncey. I never thought he would have this much impact so early on. I understand the point Hammb made, the Steelers were in a better situation at the draft.

The Browns were in need of a playmaker or QB.

[hammb]

I dunno J4H, I still wouldn't use a 1st on a Center. Pouncey has been great for Pittsburgh, and they can certainly afford to take a center in the first round since they are so good across the board already, but I still don't think that you're getting great value for a Center in the first round. The top rated centers in the draft will go in the 2nd round in most years. Many of those guys go on to be the best centers in the league.

The only way it can really be excused, IMO, is if you are a team like Pittsburgh that has an IMMEDIATE need at the position. That, to me, seems to be the big difference between a 1st round Center and one you would find in the 2nd-3rd. The first rounders can come in and play at the position right away. I suppose that has value if you're a perennial contender like Pittsburgh, but I still think you could get better value for that pick than a new starting Center.

Either way, if you're a team as full of holes and devoid of playmakers as the Browns are/were to use a first rounder on a Center is just insanely stupid.

As to this week the Browns did sign Ratliff, but I doubt he'll start over McCoy. Personally I don't believe in ruining a QB (or any other player for that matter). If he is ever going to be good enough to play in the NFL (which I don't think he will) then one bad game thrown into the fire against a good defense shouldn't be enough to ruin his psyche.

I would have 100% agreed with you until I saw the effect Pouncey had on this O-line. Worth every penny, and he wouldn't be there in the 2nd.

If James Harrison rips McCoy's arms off and beats him to death with them, that'll ruin him pretty well.

Well, like I said, I think you can excuse it when you're a contender who has an immediate need at the Center position. A 1st round Center should come in and start right away, and I agree it can help put a team over the top in the immediate...a la Pittsburgh. I guess my point though is, long term, I think you're giving up some value by taking a Center in the 1st round. A Center taken in the 2nd/3rd round will often times develop to being just as good as those guys taken in the 1st round (if you scout/develop well, which Pittsburgh always does).

Looking back at this year's draft the Steelers took a pass rusher in the 2nd and then a WR in the 3rd. Those are generally considered premium positions that go in the 1st round. Don't you think that 3 years down the line they might be a better team if they had taken maybe Dez Bryant and developed a 3rd round C? I think they would have. Obviously they wouldn't be as good THIS year with that draft, but I think by taking a Center in the first round they sacrificed future value to help the current team. That is fine if you're already a big time contender like the Steelers are. It's fu**ing stupid if you're the Browns.


Also I hope you're right about Harrison ripping McCoy's arms off. That would end the notion that we should not take another QB this year and see how McCoy develops. I'm sick and tired of the Browns finding excuses for not taking a top 10 pick QB. They didn't take Roethlisberger, they didn't take Sanchez, they didn't take Aaron Rodgers, etc, etc. Year after year they always find an excuse to not take the QB, and year after year they continue to blow ass because they can't find anyone to play the damn position. It's about time they get the f**k over Tim Couch. Yeah, he was a bust, so what, it was 11 years ago. You can't win in the NFL without a QB, and your best bet at finding one is going to be investing a top draft pick...stop letting past failures prevent you from making the tough decision!

[Warthog]

I'm sick and tired of the Browns finding excuses for not taking a top 10 pick QB. They didn't take Roethlisberger, they didn't take Sanchez, they didn't take Aaron Rodgers, etc, etc.

See, this is where I think you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Rodgers was dropping like a rock in the 2005 draft and no one went after him. The Browns took Edwards #3, which you have stated you loved Edwards and wished the Browns never traded him. Did you want the Browns to make a trade to move up to take Rodgers when he was really falling? Well that's exactly what they did in getting Quinn. And that turned out like crap as well. You can't be mad that that made a move that didn't work out when you are extorting that they should have made the exact same move in an earlier draft.

And admit it, you had as many doubts about Rodgers as Quinn during their respective drafts.

[Jacobs4Heisman]

Hammb - the Steelers almost exclusively go BPA (after accounting for character issues), and it's been a looooong time since they had a first rounder bust. That's how I knew Pouncey was going to be a monster. If the Steelers think Pouncey is so much better than the avg center that they are willing to go 1st round for a center, he must be special. Obviously they were right since centers basically never start their rookie year, let alone play near a pro-bowl level. Yeah, they might have gotten a decent center in the third, and in a few years, he might be 70% of the player Pouncey is at that time, and the skill player they took in the first might be a stud, but why try to outsmart yourself?

And the Steelers have done a very good job of identifying WR and LB talent in the 3-4 round area. The last two first round WRs they took got run out of town for being idiots, and one of them is in jail, so I think they're wary of top-round, batshit crazy receivers at this point (although I still disagree with the Holmes trade). I think you'll see them wait on receivers for the forseeable future. Wallace is a stud in the making, and Emmanuel Sanders will be very good before too long - both 3rd rounders.

I thought Rodgers would be a huge bust. I couldn't see past the Cal-Tedford line of failures. Having said that, I KNEW Quinn was and would be a big pile of flop.

[hammb]

Hammb - the Steelers almost exclusively go BPA (after accounting for character issues), and it's been a looooong time since they had a first rounder bust. That's how I knew Pouncey was going to be a monster. If the Steelers think Pouncey is so much better than the avg center that they are willing to go 1st round for a center, he must be special. Obviously they were right since centers basically never start their rookie year, let alone play near a pro-bowl level. Yeah, they might have gotten a decent center in the third, and in a few years, he might be 70% of the player Pouncey is at that time, and the skill player they took in the first might be a stud, but why try to outsmart yourself?

And the Steelers have done a very good job of identifying WR and LB talent in the 3-4 round area. The last two first round WRs they took got run out of town for being idiots, and one of them is in jail, so I think they're wary of top-round, batshit crazy receivers at this point (although I still disagree with the Holmes trade). I think you'll see them wait on receivers for the forseeable future. Wallace is a stud in the making, and Emmanuel Sanders will be very good before too long - both 3rd rounders.

I thought Rodgers would be a huge bust. I couldn't see past the Cal-Tedford line of failures. Having said that, I KNEW Quinn was and would be a big pile of flop.

Well the problem with arguing with the Steelers is that everything they do usually turns to gold.

How about this: IF I'm not the Steelers I don't take a Center in the first round? I hate the fact that the organization is such a well oiled machine. Everything they do seems to be the right thing...

[hammb]

I'm sick and tired of the Browns finding excuses for not taking a top 10 pick QB. They didn't take Roethlisberger, they didn't take Sanchez, they didn't take Aaron Rodgers, etc, etc.

See, this is where I think you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Rodgers was dropping like a rock in the 2005 draft and no one went after him. The Browns took Edwards #3, which you have stated you loved Edwards and wished the Browns never traded him. Did you want the Browns to make a trade to move up to take Rodgers when he was really falling? Well that's exactly what they did in getting Quinn. And that turned out like crap as well. You can't be mad that that made a move that didn't work out when you are extorting that they should have made the exact same move in an earlier draft.

And admit it, you had as many doubts about Rodgers as Quinn during their respective drafts.

Yes I had doubts about Rodgers & Quinn. I was afraid of the Tedford track record with QBs. With Quinn I thought he'd be a solid player with his experience in a pro system, but would never be spectacular. Personally I wouldn't have minded a move up to get either player when they slipped, because I thought both of them were better QB prospects than where they were drafted. Unfortunately one was a bust, the other a star. Pretty typical for 1st round QBs...they're about 50/50.

As for Edwards, I don't think I ever stated I loved him. I just liked him a helluva lot better than most Browns fans. Yeah he dropped WAY too many passes, and he was never going to be the superstar you should get at the #3 pick in a draft, but he was far more valuable to Cleveland's offense than what most fans realize. He was a threat that defenses had to account for. We haven't had that since the day he was traded, and you can't play offense in the NFL without it. No I wouldn't have traded him, especially considering that his value wasn't that high when they did. FWIW Edwards was not who I would have drafted at the time either...I had serious questions about his hands at UM, but that's not really relevant to how I felt about him last season.

My point is that I'm tired of the Browns trying to wait around for the perfect QB prospect. They don't exist. If they do exist they go #1 overall. So what are the odds that we'll finish with the #1 overall pick in a year where the perfect QB prospect comes out? Not bloody likely. Every prospect has questions. I'm tired of every year seeing 2 or 3 top tier QB prospects getting picked apart all college season and hearing how "We're not ready for a QB" in Cleveland. That's the way it always seems to be on the message boards...everybody is afraid to take a QB because if he sucks you are screwed for 2-3 years.

I'm almost to the point where I'm not sure that ANYBODY really knows which of these QBs is going to go on to great success. I really think it IS a crapshoot, but you can't win if you don't put any chips on the table. I, for one, would much rather continue our cycle of s**t football with a new young 1st round QB every few years than continually trying to survive off the Jake Delhomme's of the world. I still applaud the Quinn & Couch moves because they were what you need to do to win in this league. Neither of them panned out, so what, get back on the horse until you do find your damn QB...it's the only way to win in the NFL.

[Warthog]

I fully understand your point on drafting a franchise QB. But I think I am actually starting to lean the other way. QB is such a crapshoot, as you stated, that you're almost as likely to find one in the later rounds as you are in the first. Whereas other first round positions have a much higher success rate. So take players that should have a higher success rate early, and take riskier picks later.

[hammb]

I fully understand your point on drafting a franchise QB. But I think I am actually starting to lean the other way. QB is such a crapshoot, as you stated, that you're almost as likely to find one in the later rounds as you are in the first. Whereas other first round positions have a much higher success rate. So take players that should have a higher success rate early, and take riskier picks later.

This article is a couple years old but there is some pretty good info in it:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1575 ... erformance

What it shows is that if you want to find a franchise QB you almost have to take them in the first 2 rounds. Beyond that there is a pretty quick dropoff in your chances of finding a future franchise QB. However, while everyone raves about the risk of using your first rounder on a QB, the 2nd rounder is far riskier with actually having more QBs be abject failures than success. With the first round picks you're at least more likely to get average QB play than terrible.

Looking at some of the graphs there it becomes pretty clear that BY FAR your best chances of finding a franchise QB is by investing in a 1st, or maybe 2nd, round draft pick.

Another thing to consider, that isn't really brought up by this article, is that when you DO draft a future star late in the draft the odds that he is a star for your team are VERY poor. For a Tom Brady to develop into star player for the team that actually drafted him is almost unheard of. Those guys usually take so long to become good that they are almost never on their original team. Even the 2nd rounders that are stars in the league right now, off the top of my head, are not on their drafting team. Favre & Brees were both moved to other teams before they really found stardom (although Brees broke out in SD they let him go while hurt). Perhaps Kolb could ascend into that group as well.

The bottom line, for me, is that until you have a franchise QB you cannot win REGARDLESS of how good you are at the other positions. Moreover, if you DO have a franchise QB you WILL win regardless of how good you are at the other positions. The NFL has become a league where QB is really the only thing that matters for consistent year to year success. Your best bet at fixing the QB issues is at the top of the draft, where you not only have a nearly 40% chance of drafting a future probowler, you've also got only a 15% chance of drafting a total bust who cannot, at the very least, provide your team with average QB play.

If we take it for granted that drafting a QB is a total crapshoot (which I think it is), I feel a heckuva lot more comfortable rolling the dice on the better odds of the first round than I do the longer odds later in the draft. At least I feel this way when you don't currently have a QB. Once you get a capable QB, I'm a big fan of taking a mid/late rounder every year in the hopes that you may find a guy that you can later move for a high draft pick. But first I think you need to take them high until you find your guy.

[transfer2BGSU]

I'm sick and tired of the Browns finding excuses for not taking a top 10 pick QB. They didn't take Roethlisberger, they didn't take Sanchez, they didn't take Aaron Rodgers, etc, etc.

They should have taken Akili Smith instead of Tim Couch.

[Redwingtom]

Worse yet Brian, out of all the decent QB's that have changed teams recently, they end with Mr. Interception, Jake Delhomme.

[hammb]

Well guys any thoughts? I'm surprised to not see any updates to this thread after this past weekend's games...

My opinions of Colt McCoy have been pretty well known...I don't hide the fact that I thought it was a waste of a draft pick. I didn't think the kid deserved an NFL roster spot, let alone playing time/starting. I must say that on first glance I may be wrong. I'm still not convinced that he'll be a long term starter in the league, but I did see enough Sunday to make me want to see more...what say you all? I thought he showed good accuracy and far better zip on some balls than I ever expected...he actually throws a pretty tight spiral (or did on Sunday). There were a few of those floaters where the ball took forever to come down...those are what I feared with him, but they seemed to be only a few of his passes. He was skittish in the pocket at times, but that's understandable for a first time rookie starter against a good defense.

In all I think the kid did enough to get some more starts for a shitty Browns team in a season that is going nowhere. He was able to get the ball downfield better than I expected, and probably better than either of our other QBs did this year...and that was even after Harrison knocked 2 of our WRs out of the game. I did notice that all of his downfield throws were mostly to the TEs Moore & Watson...no shocker as bad as the WR corps is. What did the rest of you think? Any reason not to give McCoy a few more starts to see what he's got? Really curious what the Steelers fans thought too...

I'm not ready to anoint him the starter for '11 or anything, but I must admit he played better than I thought he would.

[tiznow]

I also am not convinced of Colt McCoy being a starting QB in the NFL, but thought he handled himself well. A few times he gave up on the play and ran, but that can be expected. I thought when he was in the pocket and knew he was going to get hit, he didn't get happy feet. Playing with two wide receivers and the back up TE moved to WR for over half the game, he was limited.

I think he earned the right to start this week. Since the Browns are 1-5, they are basically out of any realistic playoff chances, I would keep him unless he regresses terribly.



I am interested in thoughts about the Harrison hits. Here are my thoughts.

I had no problem with either hit. I have watched both plays frame by frame over and over and agreed with the refs no calls on them. I have friends that are Browns fans that completely disagree with me, they compared it with the hit from Ward on Shipley. I think the differnence is that Massoqua (sp) was fighting to still catch the ball but Shipley was defenseless.

I asked them if it was reversed would they like the hit and they both said yes. I would probably be pissed as well. I think this rivarly has sparked a lot of the emotion on the hit. If Harrison did this to 2 Texan players the emotion among Steeler Texan fans would not be there.


I am surprised the Browns did not retaliate.

[hammb]

I thought both hits were the definition of what the league is attempting to crack down on this year. In both cases Harrison made contact with the opponents' helmet before any other part of their body. Whether it is leading with his helmet or shoulder pad no longer is relevant. Both were blatant blows to the head.

If the roles were reversed I'd of course be pissed to see a penalty or fine called against the Browns players, but I would also know that they were deserved penalties. They should have been flagged at the time, IMO.

The problem with legislating helmet hits out of football is exactly this. The game is so fast and these things seem to get enforced differently on a game to game, week to week basis.

[Warthog]

I think the differnence is that Massoqua (sp) was fighting to still catch the ball but Shipley was defenseless.

You must be joking. The hit on MM was the reason the penalty was implemented. Harrison has the right to hit him, but not up near his head.

And this is an excerpt from Gregg Easterbrook's Tuesday Morning Quarterback on ESPN.com:
"Existing rule 12, 2, 7g bans "using any part of a player's helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/hairline parts) or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily," and also states, "violent or unnecessary use of the helmet is impermissible against any opponent.""

By rule then, the hit on Cribbs was illegal as well. In both instances, he lead with his head and hit the opponent in the head. Both should have been penalties.

[Warthog]

On the McCoy issue, I couldn't be happier about his performance. They absolutely need to let him start the rest of the season. Neither Delhomme nor Wallace is leading this team to the playoffs. We know the Browns are going to have a high first round draft pick. They need to let McCoy play and make a determination if he CAN be the QB to lead this team to the playoffs. And they need to know this so they know what direction to go in the next draft.