BG picked 6th in the MAC East by Phil Steele

[mmisbg]

Riiiight...and we'll create a fantasyland where BGSU starts paying football coaches the million or so dollars it would take to keep a guy like that here for an extended period....

Flipper, you think on such limited terms and vision, its really sad commentary about someone who supposedly supports the University and Falcon Athletics. I am sure if it were up to you, Sebo, Stroh, Wolfe, and our 2 new resisence halls would never have materialized. Fortunately its not up to you.

There is a line between having vision and being naive. Sub Zero, you just crossed it.

Mounting up the funds for a building that can last for generations, and often is named after the largest donor, is completely different than mounting up the funds to pay somebody's salary. Seriously, are we going to start referring to coach Clawson as the "Sebo Endowed Head Football Coach Clawson". Even that would probably not accomplish the job. BGSU's donor funds would have to increase exponentially before we could start to see those numbers.

The only thing I can say to you is: If you have the money, then what the hell have you been waiting for? We certainly are not holding you back.

[Flipper]

mmisbig...tanks for saving me some typing...

TYo add..subzero, do you understand the culture of the University you support? Do you understand the pecking order of the conferences? I've been associated with the University since 1979...we have NEVER been a break the bank for sports kind of school. Traditionally we are in the bottom third in the conference in terms of our athletics budgets...good luck changing that. Even if you could, you'd still have the monuemental task of changing the perception of the conference. We don't keep talented coaches here...not in football, not in baskteball. Even if we have the money, we don't have the opportunities competitively that a "big time" coach is going to want. We aren't going to play for the "Title"...never...not ever...not in a million years

If you wanted to be associated with a football factory...why in the blue hell did you come here? Our best case scenario is a MAC title and a top 15-20 finish. I'm fine with that. You apparently aren't...

[Sub-Zero]

Riiiight...and we'll create a fantasyland where BGSU starts paying football coaches the million or so dollars it would take to keep a guy like that here for an extended period....

Flipper, you think on such limited terms and vision, its really sad commentary about someone who supposedly supports the University and Falcon Athletics. I am sure if it were up to you, Sebo, Stroh, Wolfe, and our 2 new resisence halls would never have materialized. Fortunately its not up to you.

There is a line between having vision and being naive. Sub Zero, you just crossed it.

Mounting up the funds for a building that can last for generations, and often is named after the largest donor, is completely different than mounting up the funds to pay somebody's salary. Seriously, are we going to start referring to coach Clawson as the "Sebo Endowed Head Football Coach Clawson". Even that would probably not accomplish the job. BGSU's donor funds would have to increase exponentially before we could start to see those numbers.

The only thing I can say to you is: If you have the money, then what the hell have you been waiting for? We certainly are not holding you back.

If my opinion crosses some artificial line in your world, so be it. I am not saying we pay our HC millions of dollars. Thats a bit of a stretch given my position on this matter. My point (since I have to painfully break it down to you) is this - we should be open to risk/reward formulas for the University and our Athletic Programs. We should and must reward successful leaders of our football program who generate positive results. If its not enough, fine, we at least try and put the deal together. The numbers are not my issue here, its the view that we cant deploy financial rewards of this nature "because we are a poor, simple MAC school who can only hope to maybe one day win our own conference championship".

As far as donor funds, I will just say I do what I can at this point. The University is a key component of my estate planning so I am funding my views here in a literal sense.

[jg4242]

Sub-Zero, you want us to reward a successful football coach more than we currently do? Because Clawson is the HIGHEST paid coach in University history. He makes more than any other coach we've ever had, and he makes quite a lot more than our most successful current coach does (Miller). Frankly, that's really hard for me to justify in light of the fact that he has yet to prove himself on the field. When he wins 7 consecutive MAC titles and 7 consecutive post-season berths (and the revenue that would be associated with a championship football team), I will gladly entertain paying a higher price for his services.

Also, the simple fact is that we cannot compete financially with Ohio State, Michigan, MSU,or UC. There has to be a cost benefit analysis here: how much are we willing to pay for an elite football program versus how that money could benefit other programs? We have a limited resource pool, and we have to protect the University's core interests (educating its students) before we can consider throwing extra money at the football team. The Wolfe, Stroh, Sebo, and the new res halls will provide important opportunities to every student that steps onto campus. A higher-paid football coach will not.

[mmisbg]

If my opinion crosses some artificial line in your world, so be it. I am not saying we pay our HC millions of dollars. Thats a bit of a stretch given my position on this matter. My point (since I have to painfully break it down to you) is this - we should be open to risk/reward formulas for the University and our Athletic Programs. We should and must reward successful leaders of our football program who generate positive results. If its not enough, fine, we at least try and put the deal together. The numbers are not my issue here, its the view that we cant deploy financial rewards of this nature "because we are a poor, simple MAC school who can only hope to maybe one day win our own conference championship".

As far as donor funds, I will just say I do what I can at this point. The University is a key component of my estate planning so I am funding my views here in a literal sense.

The line may be artificial, but mine is far from the only world for which it exists.

But to get to the point, if you want to get to the root source of the problem... If you want to target the biggest thing that keeps BG football (and the rest of the MAC for that matter) where it is financially... Then you need to first take a look at our stadium attendance.

You were such a fan of Urban Meyer's time and the first few years of Brandon? Ask yourself, did we fill our stadium during that time? We have only filled the stadium for a few games in the last decade. Even during UM and GB's time.

The first thing that starts the money flowing, is stadium attendance. As it stands, we are struggling to keep ours high enough to remain single A. That didn't change, even when Urban Meyer was here. In an interview shortly after he left, he described how he had a groundbreaking second season, but hardly anybody went to the last home game. If the stadium is empty, the coaches/players/TV networks/Sports News Networks/etc assume that the team doesn't have any fans and therefore, the flow of money stops.

Given that, why don't you stop preaching to the choir. Stop harassing season ticket holders (or at least individuals who attend whenever possible) and turn your attention to the individuals that could actually make a difference. Turn your attention to the students who sit in their dorm rooms playing their Xbox instead of going to the games. Turn your attention to the community members that sit in their homes watching teams they have no personal attachment to instead of supporting the local one. Turn your attention to the local businesses who display banners of teams other than BGSU. And most of all, turn your attention to the thousands of alumni who every year graduate, drop their BG gear off at goodwill, and then run to the Buckeye/Wolverine shop.

[Flipper]

I'm hearing a lot o f buzzwoods like risk and reward...but I'm not hearing any substance. In a practical sense...what does adopting a risk/reward model mean? When have we not done so? What opportunities to enact that kind of a model have we missed in the past and what steps would have been taken at that point to "fix it"?

[Drago]

I completely agree on the attendance.....we do so many things to hurt it. You can't talk about being a national player when you draw 4000 or less to multiple games per year. Not to mention half of those tickets are sold at huge discounts or just given away. After finishing LAST in the MAC in 2010, it is really pointless to talk about it anyway.

[mmisbg]

I'm hearing a lot o f buzzwoods like risk and reward...but I'm not hearing any substance. In a practical sense...what does adopting a risk/reward model mean? When have we not done so? What opportunities to enact that kind of a model have we missed in the past and what steps would have been taken at that point to "fix it"?

+1

[Sub-Zero]

If my opinion crosses some artificial line in your world, so be it. I am not saying we pay our HC millions of dollars. Thats a bit of a stretch given my position on this matter. My point (since I have to painfully break it down to you) is this - we should be open to risk/reward formulas for the University and our Athletic Programs. We should and must reward successful leaders of our football program who generate positive results. If its not enough, fine, we at least try and put the deal together. The numbers are not my issue here, its the view that we cant deploy financial rewards of this nature "because we are a poor, simple MAC school who can only hope to maybe one day win our own conference championship".

As far as donor funds, I will just say I do what I can at this point. The University is a key component of my estate planning so I am funding my views here in a literal sense.

The line may be artificial, but mine is far from the only world for which it exists.

But to get to the point, if you want to get to the root source of the problem... If you want to target the biggest thing that keeps BG
football (and the rest of the MAC for that matter) where it is financially... Then you need to first take a look at our stadium attendance.

You were such a fan of Urban Meyer's time and the first few years of Brandon? Ask yourself, did we fill our stadium during that time? We have only filled the stadium for a few games in the last decade. Even during UM and GB's time.

The first thing that starts the money flowing, is stadium attendance. As it stands, we are struggling to keep ours high enough to remain single A. That didn't change, even when Urban Meyer was here. In an interview shortly after he left, he described how he had a groundbreaking second season, but hardly anybody went to the last home game. If the stadium is empty, the coaches/players/TV networks/Sports News Networks/etc assume that the team doesn't have any fans and therefore, the flow of money stops.

Given that, why don't you stop preaching to the choir. Stop harassing season ticket holders (or at least individuals who attend whenever possible) and turn your attention to the individuals that could actually make a difference. Turn your attention to the students who sit in their dorm rooms playing their Xbox instead of going to the games. Turn your attention to the community members that sit in their homes watching teams they have no personal attachment to instead of supporting the local one. Turn your attention to the local businesses who display banners of teams other than BGSU. And most of all, turn your attention to the thousands of alumni who every year graduate, drop their BG gear off at goodwill, and then run to the Buckeye/Wolverine shop.

1) I was a fan of Urban, not Brandon
2) I am glad you are helping me on where to turn my attention, thanks for that. I wouldnt know what to do without your guidance
3) I am not harassing season ticket holders. I am harassing poor vision and attitudes about what BG could become
4) You mention many issues. I cant say that I disagree. I am trying to make a difference both monetary and with philosophical outlook
5) Urban would have changed our attendance trends if he stayed
6) Being great starts with attitude, not how many people are in a staduim or play XBox

[Sub-Zero]

I'm hearing a lot o f buzzwoods like risk and reward...but I'm not hearing any substance. In a practical sense...what does adopting a risk/reward model mean? When have we not done so? What opportunities to enact that kind of a model have we missed in the past and what steps would have been taken at that point to "fix it"?

Yes, Flipper, you did hear correctly about risk/reward. Its not like the unicorn, shrouded in mystery. People and companies talk about it daily. Not that I owe you any substance based on your feedback vs. my posts but here is a quick example off the cuff - lets recruit a top notch AD with an enhanced comp package that would create a bonus pool at the end of, say 5 years, which would be based on and funded by BG athletic merchandise sales. The comp package would have minimum sales standards required before any bonus $s would trigger in the formula. The formula could also have a max reward limit. The risk for the potential elite AD would be the bonus falls well short of a BCS salary. The reward is he/she could surpass those levels.

[Sub-Zero]

Sub-Zero, you want us to reward a successful football coach more than we currently do? Because Clawson is the HIGHEST paid coach in University history. He makes more than any other coach we've ever had, and he makes quite a lot more than our most successful current coach does (Miller). Frankly, that's really hard for me to justify in light of the fact that he has yet to prove himself on the field. When he wins 7 consecutive MAC titles and 7 consecutive post-season berths (and the revenue that would be associated with a championship football team), I will gladly entertain paying a higher price for his services.

Also, the simple fact is that we cannot compete financially with Ohio State, Michigan, MSU,or UC. There has to be a cost benefit analysis here: how much are we willing to pay for an elite football program versus how that money could benefit other programs? We have a limited resource pool, and we have to protect the University's core interests (educating its students) before we can consider throwing extra money at the football team. The Wolfe, Stroh, Sebo, and the new res halls will provide important opportunities to every student that steps onto campus. A higher-paid football coach will not.

Can you read? I never said football coach or Clawson. My point is that we shouldnt limit ourselves on options or initiatives that can help BG succeed. And since you brought it up, yes our fball HC can be a difference maker. This position is the second most influential resource on campus behind the AD in terms of creating exposure and potential income streams for our University. The University President and/or bball HC battle for the 3/4 position. And what is your problem with Clawsons comp? He is one of the lowest paid 1A coaches in the country? I think Coach Miller is the cats meow but his comp shouldnt be on the same level as our fball HC for all kinds of reasons. So Clawson already has his limted success built into his comp but you need to compare him to other 1A fball HCs not other BG programs. The scale and peer groups are totally different. And this is not about students vs. the football coach, which is more important. I think the two are very connected. For example, most of my osu friends knew of and were drawn to Columbus because of the football program. Winning athletics can move the student needle, just ask Butler or Boise.

[jg4242]

Sub-Zero, you want us to reward a successful football coach more than we currently do? Because Clawson is the HIGHEST paid coach in University history. He makes more than any other coach we've ever had, and he makes quite a lot more than our most successful current coach does (Miller). Frankly, that's really hard for me to justify in light of the fact that he has yet to prove himself on the field. When he wins 7 consecutive MAC titles and 7 consecutive post-season berths (and the revenue that would be associated with a championship football team), I will gladly entertain paying a higher price for his services.

Also, the simple fact is that we cannot compete financially with Ohio State, Michigan, MSU,or UC. There has to be a cost benefit analysis here: how much are we willing to pay for an elite football program versus how that money could benefit other programs? We have a limited resource pool, and we have to protect the University's core interests (educating its students) before we can consider throwing extra money at the football team. The Wolfe, Stroh, Sebo, and the new res halls will provide important opportunities to every student that steps onto campus. A higher-paid football coach will not.

Can you read? I never said football coach or Clawson. My point is that we shouldnt limit ourselves on options or initiatives that can help BG succeed. And since you brought it up, yes our fball HC can be a difference maker. This position is the second most influential resource on campus behind the AD in terms of creating exposure and potential income streams for our University. The University President and/or bball HC battle for the 3/4 position. And what is your problem with Clawsons comp? He is one of the lowest paid 1A coaches in the country? I think Coach Miller is the cats meow but his comp shouldnt be on the same level as our fball HC for all kinds of reasons. So Clawson already has his limted success built into his comp but you need to compare him to other 1A fball HCs not other BG programs. The scale and peer groups are totally different. And this is not about students vs. the football coach, which is more important. I think the two are very connected. For example, most of my osu friends knew of and were drawn to Columbus because of the football program. Winning athletics can move the student needle, just ask Butler or Boise.

Actually, you DID say football coach:

We should and must reward successful leaders of our football program who generate positive results.

If you're going to talk about "leaders of our football program" and claim that you're not referring to the football coach (or Clawson,particularly), you're talking nonsense. I don't deny that there are some students who may be swayed to OSU because of football, but are those the kind of students we want to attract? Further, it might pay to notice that two of our largest 3 freshman classes EVER have been over the last two years, when our football team has not exactly had stellar publicity. I also think you are severely overestimating the brand potential of BGSU Football as a revenue stream. You claim that our football coach is our #2 most important employee in terms of potential exposure and revenue. I ask you this: How much of Harvard's annual income comes because they have a great football team? I'm not saying we can push our academic reputation to that point, either, merely pointing out that there are important things OTHER than sports.

[mmisbg]

This is pointless. Since you have the answers, Sub Zero, I once again urge you to get off the message board and turn your attention to where it will make a difference.

I hope you are right, and best of luck to you making it happen.

When BGSU wins its first National Championship, come back to the message board and look me up. I'll definitely want to shake your hand.

[h2oville rocket]

This is pointless. Since you have the answers, Sub Zero, I once again urge you to get off the message board and turn your attention to where it will make a difference.

I hope you are right, and best of luck to you making it happen.

When BGSU wins its first National Championship, come back to the message board and look me up. I'll definitely want to shake your hand.

Thought you won one in '59?

[Flipper]

I'm hearing a lot o f buzzwoods like risk and reward...but I'm not hearing any substance. In a practical sense...what does adopting a risk/reward model mean? When have we not done so? What opportunities to enact that kind of a model have we missed in the past and what steps would have been taken at that point to "fix it"?

Yes, Flipper, you did hear correctly about risk/reward. Its not like the unicorn, shrouded in mystery. People and companies talk about it daily. Not that I owe you any substance based on your feedback vs. my posts but here is a quick example off the cuff - lets recruit a top notch AD with an enhanced comp package that would create a bonus pool at the end of, say 5 years, which would be based on and funded by BG athletic merchandise sales. The comp package would have minimum sales standards required before any bonus $s would trigger in the formula. The formula could also have a max reward limit. The risk for the potential elite AD would be the bonus falls well short of a BCS salary. The reward is he/she could surpass those levels.

You'll have better luck finding a unicorn than you would finding a decent candidate willing to accept that package.

Why do you have a problem with the notion that we, as a University, are not going to be a national power in football? We don't have the fan base, we don't have the facilities (the stadium seats @ 25,000 and there's not much room to add) and we're smack in the middle of two Big 10 powers...it's not a realistic goal. You'd be far better off focusing resources on consistently placing at or near the top of the MAC ( a conference we haven't won since 1992) than you would chasing the pipe dream of being the next Boise State. Hell, the 1959 national title we won in football was the "small college" championship. That was good enough for Doyt Perry...are you telling us you're better than Doyt Perry?