Lamenting the state of MAC basketball...

[hammb]

I know that I've probably said it a million times, but I miss the days of the 90s/early 00s where MAC baskeball was producing legit talent. We still rarely got a 2nd team in the big dance, but there were several years where we had a legit beef about it. More recently we've had 1-2 schools dominate league play and they may make it through a round of the tournament, but on the whole MAC basketball is nowhere close to where it was 15+ years ago.

It really hit me when I was looking at Anthony Stacey's stats because Justin Turner just took over his Freshman scoring record. I then looked at the history of MAC players of the year, and wow you can just look at those names and see how dramatically the quality of players in this conference has dropped precipitously. When Stacey won he was in an era that saw Gary Trent win 3x, Bonzi Wells 2x, Wally Sczerbiak, Antonio Daniels, Keith McLeod, and Chris Kaman. That was an 11 year stretch where Stacey is an outlier (along with David Webber) as being the only guys without at least bouncing around the NBA. Most of those guys had legit decent NBA careers. And that's not even all of them...we also had guys like Derrick Dials, Ira Newble, Theron Smith, Tamar Slay, Earl Boykins, and I'm sure I'm missing some... all guys that had at least a cup of NBA coffee, and several having nice careers.

Now you look at the most recent Players of the year Isaiah Johnson, Antonio Campbell, Justin Moss, Jevon McRae...? Have any of those guys even been to an NBA Tryout? You have to go back to DJ Cooper to find a guy that really even stands out to me as being a standout MAC player that you feared (although Johnson was a beast last year). I actually was thinking, and Richaun Holmes might be the only MAC player still in the NBA.

I know this isn't really news to any of us that watch/follow MAC hoops, but when you really look at it the reality definitely confirms the impression. MAC hoops has fallen, and it's fallen hard.

[Globetrotter]

I know that I've probably said it a million times, but I miss the days of the 90s/early 00s where MAC baskeball was producing legit talent. We still rarely got a 2nd team in the big dance, but there were several years where we had a legit beef about it. More recently we've had 1-2 schools dominate league play and they may make it through a round of the tournament, but on the whole MAC basketball is nowhere close to where it was 15+ years ago.

It really hit me when I was looking at Anthony Stacey's stats because Justin Turner just took over his Freshman scoring record. I then looked at the history of MAC players of the year, and wow you can just look at those names and see how dramatically the quality of players in this conference has dropped precipitously. When Stacey won he was in an era that saw Gary Trent win 3x, Bonzi Wells 2x, Wally Sczerbiak, Antonio Daniels, Keith McLeod, and Chris Kaman. That was an 11 year stretch where Stacey is an outlier (along with David Webber) as being the only guys without at least bouncing around the NBA. Most of those guys had legit decent NBA careers. And that's not even all of them...we also had guys like Derrick Dials, Ira Newble, Theron Smith, Tamar Slay, Earl Boykins, and I'm sure I'm missing some... all guys that had at least a cup of NBA coffee, and several having nice careers.

Now you look at the most recent Players of the year Isaiah Johnson, Antonio Campbell, Justin Moss, Jevon McRae...? Have any of those guys even been to an NBA Tryout? You have to go back to DJ Cooper to find a guy that really even stands out to me as being a standout MAC player that you feared (although Johnson was a beast last year). I actually was thinking, and Richaun Holmes might be the only MAC player still in the NBA.

I know this isn't really news to any of us that watch/follow MAC hoops, but when you really look at it the reality definitely confirms the impression. MAC hoops has fallen, and it's fallen hard.

You would think there would be a guy or 2 with NBA talent in every league. It does seem strange.

[gmartin]

Hammb, I know you dispise women's basketball, but this year the MAC may have 2, possibly 3 teams in the dance. Latest projections have CMU and Buffalo each in the dance with Ball State as 1st four out. If the conference can send 3 Women's team surely the Men can too. The MAC women conference RPI is 7, out of 31. That's pretty good. Buffalo women RPI is 12. The MAC women's team, the upper level teams have been scheduling Michigan State, USC, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Purdue, Baylor just to name a few. The Men's team needs to schedule tougher opponents. More than likely it would be a loss but to incoming recruits it looks like, "Hey these schools are playing the big boys." The men's team needs to really step up its scheduling. Even though we will lose 90% of the games to the big boys it will eventually help in recruiting and getting the better caliber players within the conference. If you were a recruit and you saw BG schedule this year would you want to come here and play. Erie and Notre Dame College. How about them teams down at the Creek Classic. Then throw in Heidelberg, Tiffin and Defiance. Oh boy. It is time the conference as a whole steps up and start scheduling tougher opponents even if it means a loss.

[hammb]

Hammb, I know you dispise women's basketball, but this year the MAC may have 2, possibly 3 teams in the dance. Latest projections have CMU and Buffalo each in the dance with Ball State as 1st four out. If the conference can send 3 Women's team surely the Men can too. The MAC women conference RPI is 7, out of 31. That's pretty good. Buffalo women RPI is 12. The MAC women's team, the upper level teams have been scheduling Michigan State, USC, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Purdue, Baylor just to name a few. The Men's team needs to schedule tougher opponents. More than likely it would be a loss but to incoming recruits it looks like, "Hey these schools are playing the big boys." The men's team needs to really step up its scheduling. Even though we will lose 90% of the games to the big boys it will eventually help in recruiting and getting the better caliber players within the conference. If you were a recruit and you saw BG schedule this year would you want to come here and play. Erie and Notre Dame College. How about them teams down at the Creek Classic. Then throw in Heidelberg, Tiffin and Defiance. Oh boy. It is time the conference as a whole steps up and start scheduling tougher opponents even if it means a loss.

I whole-heartedly agree with you about scheduling. I've been saying it for as long as you have. I want to see us playing good teams. Even if that means less home games and more games I'm watching on ESPN3, at least we're playing decent teams. I think that improves recruiting, and thus improves the talent. And it is FAR from just a BG problem, and I didn't want it to seem as such. THe whole damned conference needs to do a better job scheduling. I think I've seen just about every team in the conference play this year at least once, and there is no way this group of teams should enter conference play all having winning records. There's a reason why Buffalo is the only team we have in the top 50 RPI (they're 36, Toledo is 2nd in the conference at 75 using CBS RPI).

Personally I think the conference should take some time to look at why this is. Start penalizing teams/schools for scheduling patsies. Maybe don't require as many home games, knowing that we'll have to go more on the road for quality opponents. Do something to incentivize going out and playing a challenging schedule, do something to get MAC basketball back to where it was 15 years ago.

I suppose the major difference is that there is less money in the women's game all around, thus it costs less to buy games? I dunno, but it is unnerving to see the league have success playing high quality opposition in the women's game while the men's teams continue to beat up on fodder and cannot produce more than a single NBA player in the last 5+ years.

[gmartin]

And unfortunately I think the scheduling will get worse in years to come. This year the NCAA is putting higher emphasis on home games against opponents with a top 30 RPI. And on the road against a top 50 RPI team. Nobody except Buffalo this year would qualify that high. So what's the incentive of the better programs to schedule a weaker mid-major. None. Also, you know it's been a long time since great talent within the conference when Gary Trent's son is now playing at Duke and will be in the NBA next year. And you forgot one player Hammb. He is now a coach at Grand Canyon University. Thunder Dan Majerle

[naandre]

In the 17 years between 1986 and 2003 the MAC had 17 players get drafted with 8 selected in the lottery. In the 13 years between 2003 and 2016 Holmes was the only MAC player drafted.

[mbenecke]

In the 17 years between 1986 and 2003 the MAC had 17 players get drafted with 8 selected in the lottery. In the 13 years between 2003 and 2016 Holmes was the only MAC player drafted.

Wow. Now THAT is a telling stat.

[BillyLP]

In the 17 years between 1986 and 2003 the MAC had 17 players get drafted with 8 selected in the lottery. In the 13 years between 2003 and 2016 Holmes was the only MAC player drafted.

This is about when the one-and-done rule took effect, no? I imagine that hurt the parity in basketball pretty significantly and caused recruitment to be top heavy for the ACC/SEC/Big Whatever schools.

[gmartin]

In the 17 years between 1986 and 2003 the MAC had 17 players get drafted with 8 selected in the lottery. In the 13 years between 2003 and 2016 Holmes was the only MAC player drafted.

This is about when the one-and-done rule took effect, no? I imagine that hurt the parity in basketball pretty significantly and caused recruitment to be top heavy for the ACC/SEC/Big Whatever schools.

The 2005 NBA collective bargaining agreement started the age of 19, and one and done. The first year in college would have been 2006, making 2007 the first draft one and done players would have been eligible. So it's been 11 years now for this dumb rule.

[zete]

I think the league has lost its fan base across the board due in part to what is stated above. Several of those I grew up with locally were huge fans of the league in general and now care very little. Most of them are now committed to the Big Ten.

[hammb]

I think the league has lost its fan base across the board due in part to what is stated above. Several of those I grew up with locally were huge fans of the league in general and now care very little. Most of them are now committed to the Big Ten.

I think so as well. Certainly at BG our fan support had gone to hell, but it doesn't help that as the league has gotten worse we've gotten worse at an even quicker rate.

In my case I used to go to the tournament every year. Even when I didn't think we had a real shot I'd go for the weekend just to enjoy some good hoops. I think my last year was 04 or 05. Now I plan to try to get out there if BG advances but the quality of play is so mediocre I don't care to pay just to watch the rest of the games.

I'm not sure we can fairly blame the one and done tile either. In theory that added another layer of recruits to the big boys that should have passed down the subsequent talent tiers to the lower leagues. Not sure it has had a major effect on it draftable talent either. Now I will say in that time period the international game head gotten much stronger and stolen a lot of draft shots that used to go to lower tier college players, that could effect the mac in terms of draftable talent, but I don't think that's the only issue at play here.

[Falconwriter]

Not sure you can blame the weak BG fan base on anything other than the school's mediocre history in the sport. It's hard to root for a team that has not been to an NCAA tournament in 50 years and has put some really bad teams on the court in that time. Yes, the league being down is probably a factor, but I'm going to say it's not THE factor where BG is concerned. A winning tradition would probably draw fans in.

I know the generational differences are in play as well, but I was in school in the early to mid 1970s and having been to The Dance wasn't a distant memory like it is now. Also, BG had, up to that point, been a program that was one of those that had realized success in the league. During my time at BG, the Falcons came within a basket or two or winning the conference (Pat Haley's teams) and Anderson Arena was pretty full (if not packed and loud) every game. And in that era, you had to buy individual season tickets for sports.

[zete]

In the 17 years between 1986 and 2003 the MAC had 17 players get drafted with 8 selected in the lottery. In the 13 years between 2003 and 2016 Holmes was the only MAC player drafted.

Yes, there was a time when the MAC Player of the Year would walk right into the NBA.....not lately.

[Matty B]

I think the biggest reason for the drop in MAC talent is the nationalized recruiting and expanded AAU circuit. Its a lot tougher to "hide" a player from the big schools nowadays.

[hammb]

I think the biggest reason for the drop in MAC talent is the nationalized recruiting and expanded AAU circuit. Its a lot tougher to "hide" a player from the big schools nowadays.

Probably a lot of truth to that.

I also wonder if the sheer volume of kids declaring early for the draft doesn't hurt as well. It seems to me (I have no statistical data) that far more kids declare early for the draft now than they did 20 years ago. Not just the kids that go in and pull back (like Wiggins) but kids actually just leaving school to play, even if it means ending up in the G-League. That results in more open scholarships (especially at the top) every year.

Duke, for instance, used to pride itself in keeping kids for 4 years. Now they're overturning 3-4 roster slots every year.

In any case, the MAC is definitely better this year than it was last year when this was originally posted. It's still nowhere near 15-20 years ago in terms of pro level talent, but at least we're not watching garbage basketball every night. Big question still if this is just a one year blip or the start of a trend in better play.